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Author Topic: 'Nother AP Question...  (Read 61300 times)
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TomC
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« on: October 30, 2005, 07:02:17 PM »

'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Jul 11, 2005, 8:39pm


Researching the AP class...

We don't have many running here at present, so not enough to determine the "best" chassis layout...

I've seen front engine, mid engine and rear engine layouts...

The local "boneyard" at present, has three or four rear engine chassis available and I'm wondering if I should snag one up or wait for a mid or small front engine chassis to become available..

Weight ratio wise I would "think" a rear engine chassis with the rear axel slightly behind the motor and driver "centered" would have a good balance and decent steering charcteristics...

But the short mid engines also look promising as a "stepping stone" to FX...

Appreciate any opinions on front vs. mid vs. rear engine handling charecteristics....

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 26, 2005, 8:19pm


OK, So I decided on the short mid engine chassis for next years ride...I'll build it for AP and then it'll be a "stepping stone" for the following years FX...

It's a early 60s "Rugg" with a 36" wheelbase and 24" width, had 7 hp Te"chump"sa on it and a 30" deck...

I thought I'd do a "Build up" series on this forum showing progress...

Unfortunately my computer died and I lost the "before" pics...(I got a computer dude hacking into the old hard drive, and hopefully I'll get them back)

So I'll start with the stripped down chassis...everything off and down to the bare frame rails...Being a "U" channel frame I "discretely reinforced" it by boxing the channel with 1/8"X1" flat stock...


In order to set rear ride height correctly, I had to "notch" into the frame...if I set the axel "above" the frame it would have been at 3 1/4" to ground (too low)and if I set it below the frame it would have been 6 1/4" (too high) As it is the frame is set at 4 1/2" above ground the finished machine with lower "racing" tire pressure should come in at 4 1/8"-4 1/4" above ground...Legal for tech...

After notching the frame I reinforced the frame (boxed) and welded on the flange mounts...


Then I built the front axel, using 1 1/2" X2" rectangular tubing...at 22" long it weighs in at a little less 1/4 lb. more than if I used 1"x2" tube and twice as strong in a forward "bump"...I used 5/8" spindles and carriers from ACME and welded them on with castor and camber set ...also set at 4 1/2" ride height.

Mower to come...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 26, 2005, 9:05pm


Rear axel 1" steel, Free spin bearings from ACME..Tires, wheels and hubs from Comet Kart...



Working on setting engine and trans will be facilitated by using "hollow" block for measurements. Motor plate removable for trans and chutch set up... I also moved the steering shaft forward for "head room" when I go to OHV next year and because being long and tall, I don't want to drive with the wheel in my "crotch"...

Being an old "transaxle" setup means I'll have to add to and reinforce the motor plate for the 700 series trans...



Another shot of front axel and relocated steering...



Here the body parts are set "loose" to check clearances and "discrete" fender mount adjustments needed...



Mower to come...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by mowmanscott on Sept 27, 2005, 5:55am


look good keep up the good work

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Sept 27, 2005, 2:24pm


the Only thing I see is the sterring column must exit thru it's original hole in dash/hood if a prepared class mower. FX on the other hand is a different story. Everything else looks great. Good Job.
George

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 27, 2005, 6:10pm


OK...I can live with that...I can move it "back" an inch or so and still make the original hole (bump on hood) but just as far forward as the original hole will let me...

Good thing we caught it early...(another reason for "building it on the board here...) would hate to show up at the first race and be sent home...

Good "Eye" George...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 27, 2005, 6:55pm


OK...That didn't take long...

I "clamped" the seat on with out the "seat spring" and sat on it....The wheel is not too bad, not as tight to my crotch as it was in the "stock" set up...



I can live with this...Looks nicer too... Wink

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 27, 2005, 7:02pm


I think once I ("discretely") move the fenders and seat a little closer to the rear wheels, I should be real comfortable...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Sept 28, 2005, 7:18am


Very nicecly done, now if you intend on putting an ohv in it when I built my FX I heated the plate on front so it and column went straight up, then cut it off useing a swivel joint ran it back and still run it out the same original hole giving the wheel a more laid back look. Felt real good too. Go to www.geocities.com/georgenfive and scroll thru the pics Don't remember which page its on. That was 4 or 5 years ago. But again looking good so far, glad I could help.
George

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 28, 2005, 7:37am


Yeah, I saw your build up(s) on your web page, that's what gave me the idea to move the steering in the first place..

It's AP for this year, and when I do go FX we'll strip 'er down and "tweak" 'er some more...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 1, 2005, 9:57am


Didn't get much done this week, Dang Job sucked up a lot of time... Angry...I'm not going to give up on Family Time or eating or sleeping, so I guess I'll have to quit my my job so I can dedicate more time to building my mower...

Yep...Sacrifices have to be made... Wink

The Axel and Spindles came with "Nylock" nuts and I wanted "castellated" nuts to set pre load...Went to the Auto parts store and they wanted over $4 a POP for them...that's nuts<<< Wink...So I got some 79 centers at the Hdwr store and a little work with the cut off wheel saved me $15...



Added 4" to the motor plate by "relocating" a piece of the running board to the back, filled the old "holes" and drilled in the pattern for the 700...

Also found a nice rear sprocket in excellent shape on one of the old mowers I stripped down, so I cut the center out on a lathe and drilled it to fit the sprocket hub...



Had to cut out the rear crossmember to fit the sprocket (and the brake disc, if they ever ship it) I need to replace it with something..was thinking a piece of 1/4" X 2" flat bent out over and back (kinda like this _/------\_ )



Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 1, 2005, 10:14pm


OK, Have the clutch mocked up and set, final adjustments and belt selection will be made after I have a running motor installed...Due to closeness of engine and trans pulleys, I went with a single tensioner pulley and a couple "belt keepers"...if I need a second "V" pulley one one could be added to the tensioner mount.

Linkage to pedal goes in after plate is back on frame, pedal and rod are part of the frame...



Also cut a "notch" and reinforced for chain clearance and chain tensioner, which will be added when I get the final gearset...



I see this thread has had quite a few "views"...If anyone has any questions, comments or "pointers" I'd be glad to hear them...I'm no expert at this, I'm just plugging along doing what seems to make "sence"...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Red Horse Racing on Oct 2, 2005, 7:08pm


I don't have any questions or pointers, but I do want to say THANK YOU for showing us the details of your project.

I have dial up, as many people still do, as it's the only thing I can get here in the sticks. A lot of people when they post pictures tend to forget this, or simply don't have the time to resize the pictures to reasonable file size.

This thread loads within a few minutes, and is GREAT!!!

Keep it going, it's giving me inspiration, and hopefully soon I'll have something to ad. Right now the tractor used to mow the grass is giving me FITS! I can't worry about going fast until I can mow. LOL

Thanks again, keep up the good work.

Dale

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 4, 2005, 7:54pm


I cannot picture what you want to do for the rear. tack it in place and send a pic I will let you know. As far as everything thing else. Still looking very good. You do nice work.
George

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by moweracer227 on Oct 4, 2005, 9:33pm


Squidd,

What type of brakes you going to use. If it is a aftermarket need room for caliper and rear brake disc.
If going to use trans brake should be fine with current setup. Aluminum axle---watch for axle fles around sprocket area. May need support there if going to use a beast of a motor. Just what I see--also I agree with George/Dale--no expert here, but like what I see so far.

Moweracer227
S/P227 A/P227
F/x 227

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by jake100 on Oct 4, 2005, 9:57pm


Hay mowracer;
Isn't a brake on the trans. a hazard by using the chain as link in brake system?? ???

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 4, 2005, 11:15pm


Hey thanks guys...Yeah, I've burned a few "sticks" in my time...Gotta love wire feed...

George...will "tack" one on shortly...after I do brake set up...Need the room for rear sprocket and Disk, but don't want the appearance of adding a "bumper"...


Mowerracer227...8" disk planned for "right" of rear sprocket (that's why I put the trans on the left)..I have the caliper..still waiting for the disk to show up..hopefully this weekends project... That's a steel axel, only 7" to each frame...still think I'll have "flex"...??
And yeah...a "Beast" of a motor IS planned... :-X


Pony...Yeah out in the boonies I have dial up too...(part of why I keep the pics small...for loading)...I hate that when you have to "scroll" across the page to read the text...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Red Horse Racing on Oct 6, 2005, 7:31pm



Hey Squid,

On those castled nuts you wanted. I'm not sure what size you need, but I was just cruising Manufacturers Supply, http://www.mfgsupply.com/GoMiniHardwareNuts.html/mv_session_id=8wn7ogYY
and found them for 23 to 75 cents. The largest they have is only 5/8" though.

Did you look at someplace like Lowe's or Home Depot? Quite often they have a rack of nuts and bolts.

Dale, in Michigan

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 6, 2005, 11:25pm


squidd if an AP you will be using 6 inch rims and tires right. Ok an 8" disk may present a ground clearance issue on a rough track get bent and provide a frustrating DNF. A 6 inch disk is very sufficient for an AP or FX for that matter especially if using a hydraulic brake system. Also munt brake system outside the frame, you want to run 5 inch wide wheels (wide) on an ap so clearance will not be an issue. I havn't run AP but the fast guys are not using wide rims and tires I presume better performance with less HP. And look at this way more lbs per square inch meaning better traction. Just some opinions. Either way a 6 inch brake disk is sufficient. George

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 7, 2005, 12:20am


George... OK I hear you...got kind of the same situation with the 54 tooth gear (8 3/4")...

I already ordered the 8" brake disc, (hopefully it'll show up tomorrow), and then I can cut that down to a 6"...and then bust out the Visa and get a smaller diameter Sprocket ...like a 40 tooth...

That should leave me room to stay with the stock rear crossmember...Kinda kill two or three birds with one stone, so to speak...

Red Horse...I'm sure there are "cheaper" places to get castellated nuts...(could have had Mc Master send some out with my last order...)
Point was more the McGiver/Self suffeciency, Do it yourself thing...Kinda like, let's say it's late Friday night, your getting ready to hit the road to make the race tommorrow, and your missing a nut (or bracket or "clip" or what ever)...and you remember this thread and "make one yourself"..and your ready to rock and roll...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 7, 2005, 10:05pm


Well, hopefully I can catch you guys tonight...
I got 'er tacked up and plan on welding 'er together tomorrow...

I got the 8" disk and cut it down to 6"+/- and mounted it and the caliper "inboard" (just because it was an "easy" mount) and then switched the 8 3/4" sprocket for a 6 1/2" 40 tooth aluminum...

That ment I didn't have to "bump" the rear cross member out as much for clearance (and make it look like a "bumper") and will still be strong enough for "twist" control...



I'm thinking this should pass "tech" as a "discrete" frame reinforcement, but I'd like to hear your "opinion" George...not sure what else I can do and still clear the sprocket and disk...

Here's a quick shot showing the old crossmember...as you can see i'm not any further out or "obtrusive" than the original piece would have been and it gives me the clearance I need...





Well...back out to the shop to finish up the fender and seat mounts...

Later..

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Red Horse Racing on Oct 7, 2005, 10:49pm


Oh Squidd, I never intended any disrespect on your make do fix. I do them all the time.

Maybe I should been more clear. My referral was more intended for reference for anyone found wanting for castellated nuts, who also had the time for them "come in."

I'm enjoying this thread immensely. Just tonight in trying to remove the stock pulleys from the transaxle and engine, which of course seemed to be permentently bonded on, I came up with an idea.

I drilled three equally spaced holes around the pulleys and used a harmonic balancer puller to pull them off. Worked much better than the three-jawed pullers I've always used in the past only to wind up totally destroying the pulleys.

Theoretically, these pulleys should still be usable. But did I take pictures??? Heck no! Never occured to me until just now.

Keep up the good work.

Dale, in Michigan

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 8, 2005, 2:11am


Hey suidd looks good to me!!! Sorry so late been building myself. building two an SP and a BP in 4 days. S/P is done except clutch and BP is about 45% complete. Gotta finish it the owners are up here from Florida to pick them up. Should be done Sunday Evening. Whew allot of work. GeorgeRe: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 8, 2005, 9:28am

George, Super...Thanks, we'll go with it then...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 8, 2005, 9:32am


Red Horse, No offence ment, none taken...Good job on the pully/puller, I trashed a few myself (as well as transaxel wheel/axel/shafts) a good puller sure beats "Heat and Beat".. Grin

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 8, 2005, 9:41am


For all you "enginering" types...

I'm going to be setting up the steering linkage soon...

Direct steering, Center link,both shaft link and spindle links are on the same plane..

Choices are:
"A" common pin, one up one down...difference of tie rod angles
"B" common pin, both below (or above)...difference of tie rod angles
"C" seperate pins, possible "ackerman" offset, tie rods on same plane.

Any preferences and "why"...??



Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by mowmanscott on Oct 8, 2005, 10:10am


Oh yah I rember my last heat and beat I was takeing a pully off a transaxel heat and beat heat and beat then I broke the input shaft right off the case I had to make a trip to the bone yard. I found my puller worked great to remove the pulley from the shaft I will never make do that again....

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 9, 2005, 5:53pm


Ok...I know I spent WAY Too Much time on this part, and there are easier ways to do this...but...

I was able to "blend" and mold a running board/foot cup into the mower deck, as far forward and low as I could go, to get the most "leg" room on this "mini" machine...

Mower deck set 1 1/2" below frame, should come in 2 3/4" above ground when complete...

All edges ground round and smooth under machine...



Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 12, 2005, 10:19am


Any thoughts on the steering linkage...?

I'm thinking of going with option "C"... so "inside" tire turns further (tighter) than outside tire..

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by moweracer227 on Oct 12, 2005, 8:19pm


Squidd,

I use the option C on all my mowchines. I also tilt my U-shaped bracket in at the top 10 degrees (neg camber) to speed up weight transfer during turning. Castor is normally set around to around 3-7 degrees depending on driving style, or what is best for current setup. U-shaped bracket angled back at top side. The other thing I do is drill three holes in each spindle arm were tie rods bolt for ackerman adjustments. Sounds like alot of work but once it is set/adjusted handling is far more superior. Still need to check periododically for adjustments. Toe-In at 1/8th inch.

Moweracer227

P.S. No don't think you will get much flex with only 7 inches there.

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 13, 2005, 3:17pm


I think you have your castor and camber definitions mixed up but I hear you on the angles...

I set the castor (top of king pin "back") at 13* and the camber (top of king pin "in") at 1 1/2* and 3 1/2* L&R respectively...

I went a little higher on the castor in case I try taller tires in the rear...(although I'd prefer to keep the chassis level)

I had originally set my IMOW castor to 10* relative to the axel, but when I welded the axel in an 1 1/4" higher and got the tallest tires I could on the rear, I ended up with only 3*-4* after the chassis "raked"...(hint for imow guys)

Gonna do a couple cardboard and coat hanger "mock-ups" (check linkage angles) before I do any cutting, drilling and welding, but option "C" it is...

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 15, 2005, 9:24pm


Glad I went with the cardboard and coat hanger befor I fired up the welder...Had to adjust the layout a couple times to get the ackerman effect I wanted...

First time up the outside tire turned tighter than the inside...

Final layout...shows angle of outside spindle...



Same angle on "inside spindle: shows 7* tighter radius...



Heres the final centerlink and angle of tierods...tomorrow I can drill and tap the rods and bolt in the balljoints...



Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 16, 2005, 10:35pm


Here's the final steering setup..tie rods are 9/16" rod, center drilled and taped for 3/8" X3/8" balljoints... Tight...



Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 16, 2005, 10:42pm


Here's the (almost) finished frame...

Just need to figure out a clutch pedal and linkage that will be quick and "convienent" to reach with my foot wedged in the boot cup...and a battery box...

Then a clean, sand, prime and paint..



Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by mowmanscott on Oct 17, 2005, 5:32am


looks great Squidd! Thanks for sharing all you pics. so far....

Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 17, 2005, 6:49am


Hey, and I want to thank all you guys for watching over this project thru the build up ...and all the suggestions hints and tips ...made a few changes as we went, stuff that "might have" caused trouble down the line, if I went ahead and built this blindly in the back room...

I do have a few more steps to go yet, I want to do another "pre assembly/mock up" to check linkages, cables, exhaust, body panels, chain guard, seat mount, tach mount, tank mount, switching...

Holy Smokes...I got a LOT more work to do yet...before I paint...

As a side note, an interesting development came up this weekend...My 13 yr old "Daughter" showed an interest in the Lawnmower build up and even in the possibilty of "Racing"... Grin

So I pulled out what was going to be my "back up" AP a 40" front engine mowchine that's already set up with "chain drive" trans and axel, just needs to be widened and lowered...and set her to work on it...

Could be one of the first "J/P" mowchines in our LC area....We'll have to see how this one develops...Could have a new "Racing Buddy"... Grin









Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 17, 2005, 7:18am


great job and I know the happy Dad feelings when the kids show that spark of interest. Looking forward to seeing the end result on the track. George
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2005, 04:47:45 PM »

I'll use this as a post for the contest, but plan on being back with more pics on the A/P buildup... Cool
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 09:06:21 PM »

Squidd, that looks like its going to be one piece of serious grass kickin machinery. it looks good and even gave me some ideas on the lil mustang ive got waitin for its makeover after the old "Wheelie Horse" is done getting paint and all that good stuff. Keeps us posted on it cause im looking forward to seeing the finished product.
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2005, 09:06:21 PM »

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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 09:21:33 PM »

OK...Been awhile since an update...

Haven't been working on the mowchine as "intensely" as before, but still plugging along..

Been doing the "little" things that seem to take the most time...

Have the chain Tentioner installed, but not adjusted yet, still need change the drive sprocket to the correct ratio, then shorten the chain to fit..

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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2005, 09:26:08 PM »

Built the seat/fender mount...got the fenders to within 1/2" of the tires...



And the seat down low and back for legroom, but still my butt is centered "forward of the rear axel slightly for better weight distribution on a short wheelbase mowchine...

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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 09:29:03 PM »

You can kind of compare this shot with the one way at the beginning to see the "adjustment...

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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 09:35:46 PM »

Also have the clutch linkage and pedal installed as well as the trans "shifter...working on the battery box at present...

Will get pics up soon...

In the meantime, been helping "Sami" (my daughter) build her mowchine...

She has been doing ALL the work, from drilling to cutting to grinding to bolting...I just kinda watch , advise, and show her the correct tool and technique...

Axel raised/frame lowered, widened wheelbase, stripped mowchine to bare bones, and had a "Blast" with the pressure washer cleaning it up..



I'll probably weld up the front axel, but she'll set the castor and camber angles... Cool
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« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2005, 05:17:21 AM »

Sid looking like a pro builder. Was looking back over your post/pics. On your spindles get some 1/8 or 1/4 inch flat bar lay in the tie tod arm pocket weld it in and re-drill your tie rod holes. The arms bend real easy if in a wreck or clipping a bail. Gotta be there at the end if ya want a chance at the all treasured checkered. Also I noticed that the axles where welded to the king pin barrel are round headed. Not square as a bolt. Those have been bending very very quickly and easily. What size axles you get. You may want to consider cutting them off awelding a grade 8 bolt as a replacement axle. Been there several times over the last two rears. I have started using the spindles For Jr dragsters, Come in kit form from ARC or EC where i work. Use 1/2 inch ball bearings for king pin much easier steering. Arc axles are not very long But at work we have some longer ones. Much better set up. And won't bend one.
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« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2005, 09:51:18 AM »

My original plan was to "build" the spindles and carriers with bearings and bolts, just the way you described, but I opted to go the "ready made" route to keep costs and time down...

It is just an AP after all and I figured I'd bump it up a notch on the next one...

But, as I go along I can see the weak points as well...I am planning on "reinforcing" the tie rod arms for now and will keep an "eye" on the spindle/axel for tweaking and replace if/when needed...at that point go the full bearing route.

Axel is basic 5/8" straight bolt and if I'm going to go thru the trouble of cutting and replacing the axel, I might as well do the whole carrier...

But at "that" point I think I'd do the 3/8" plate/ 5/8" ball ends, fully adjustable (castor/camber/wedge) setup...and the 3/4" X 5/8" stepped axel/bearing/hub route.

It just keeps getting better... lol  I'm not done with this one and already planning the "next"...
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2005, 09:18:34 PM »

Lookie what Santa sent me for Christmas !!!

"Almost" too pretty to hide under the blower cover...

Now with the Holidays almost over I have one little project to do then back to building the Mowchine... bigsmile
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2006, 01:57:22 PM »

Hi Squidd, I was wondering about your chassis. I have one very similar and when I welded the flat bar into the bottom for reinforcing I used some of the tried and true methods of limiting warpage( make a weld about 1/2" long and then start 1/2" away and weld back into my first weld)but I still got a pretty good crown in my chassis (about 1/4").Its pretty even on both sides so I think I will leave it. How did yours turn out? The only thing I was thinking was that I could weld the motor plate on solidon the top and see if the welding on top would pull it back.
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2006, 02:02:37 PM »

I have found on the huffy style channel frames when welding the flat bar alojng the bottom weld 1/4 beads every 1/2 inch apart. alterante sides when doing so. This will keep much heat out and also it will be plenty strong enough. I did this on my FX and also on a couple other chassis I built for others, Got no warpage and I did the same in welding the motor plate on.
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« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2006, 04:23:52 PM »

So probably if I weld the motor plate on the chassis,the frame will pull back straight. Would you also put a crossmember in the chassis for a little less flex.
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« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2006, 04:50:41 PM »

I wouldn't I built my huffy/fx 5 years ago. When it was 2 years old I kart wheeled it app. 12 feet high in the air, it didn't bend anything except a steering arm. Once you have the motor plate welded on which by all rights should pull it back the other way some if not completely it will be strong enough. Just my opinion. Once you have the bar welded on the bottom of the frame and weld the front and rear cross members on don't rely on the bolts to hold it she won't flex.
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George Herrin #6
Indian Power.. You gotta Go big to beat em or Go HOME
8 time ARMA National Champion
4 time USLMRA National Champion
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www.herrinmowersports.yolasite.com
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My other racer is a 1/5th scale Dirt Late Model!!!!
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« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2006, 05:51:40 PM »

To prevent "warpage" I did short welds (mine were about 1"-1 1/2") alternating sides/middle/ends,inside and then outside, left then right, etc... but I think the trick is to have a wet (water soaked) rag handy to "douse and cool"  inbetween runs...

The warpage comes with the build up of heat and "Slow" cooling (which also makes the frame "softer")...The wet rag and quick cool will minimize warpage and leave a tempered/hardened stiffer chassis..
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