Author Topic: racing mentality  (Read 12790 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dandt4238

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Karma: 2
  • Gender: Male
  • Dean Schopf Jr. Dover, PA
    • View Profile
    • The PA Lawn Mower Racing Assoc.
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 04:35:02 pm »
Birdman you are correct, I did ask that it be removed, and I feel I had very good reason to ask of it.  There was a comment that was made that I feel had a negative look towards the sport, and the last thing we need right now, is for someone that is thinking of building a racer decide not because of something that was said in a public forum.  I responded in the thread, then was "put in my place" by another member.  Instead of the continuing, I asked that it be removed.  I have reached out to the folks that I felt had posted inappropriately in a PM, and have yet to hear back from them.  Their names will not be revealed because the last thing this forum needs is a "he said he said" conversation. 
I am not a poor sport, I have lost many races and keep coming back for more.  I meant no disrespect  toward the engine builders, parts suppliers, parts buyers, and innovators of our sport, but as a promoter, I feel something needs to be done about the sports declining numbers.  The economy is to blame, and I think an entry level budget class that is not so restricted as IMOW/SS is a way to steer the sport in the right direction. 
That is my opinion.  If you disagree, fine, but do so in a manner that is not offending anyone else.  With that said, can we keep it peaceful and go back to the original discussion?  Why is a budget class such a bad idea?  Why can those in a budget class not be competitive?  Why would we assume that folks in a budget class would not travel to national point races?
Just some thoughts,
Dean Jr.
Schopf & Frantz Family Mowtorsports
550 FX
505 CPR
161 CP and CPR
523 CPR
181 CP
and our newest driver
     *295 IMOW* Good Luck Ashers!

Offline Burwell555

  • Hot Rod Hitman
  • Highly Mowtivated
  • ****
  • Posts: 2986
  • Karma: 12
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 05:42:25 pm »
Seems like you would be a bit late to make the suggestion? Mod XR and CPR have already been added locally, just not on a national circuit. As stated before it costs more to 'chase' nationals than the machine itself does to build. So if you are the promotor of your club or your the president or whatever you use as a figurehead, add some budget classes! I have never heard of a safe class being shunned locally because it was cheap. If its safe and ya have the guys, run it!! They will obviously have to pay theor dues with your club and national sanction body for insurance, so that's covered. Ask your guys what they want, and cater to them!
Zach Burwell
#555 of Triple Nickel Racing


Wanna know a quick way to lose 8 pounds?!

Offline Smowkin Joe

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 07:11:33 pm »
 How do you monitor a racers budget?
Joe Erlenbusch

Offline oldfordman21

  • WOO President
  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 104
  • Karma: 2
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 07:12:46 pm »
  In the WOO club, we start out with the juniors. Last year my two grandsons, ages 4&6 both drove in this class. They are powered by a push mower engine stock, up to 6.5hp. These mowers are ringers for our outlaws, only smaller. They run slipper clutches, aluminum wheels and are about an 1.5 in. off the ground. These are a real crowd pleaser and travel with us and run the same mount of races at a venue as the big guys. Next is our economods. They use a shiftable trans axle and run up to a 8hp governed engine, Must have a min 2" of ground clearance, and are allowed to go out to 42" wide, outside of wheels. Believe it or not, these guys put on a great show. All our classes must run front hubs, except for the economod class. Stock wheels are not allowed in any class except economod.
  Next is our mods, they can run up to 18hp, governed at 3650rpm. They can run a moly rear axle with a transmission or a transaxle. This class runs vertical engines and are allowed slipper (centrifugal) clutches. Again 42in. wide at the wheels.
  Our super mods run bone stock 18hp engines ungoverned with billet flywheels and aftermarket valve springs and retainers. Again, 42in wide.
  Now, the outlaws, everyone knows about them. This season, in Canada, the top three classes have to weigh in at a minimum of 500lbs with driver with an 18hp or more engine. If a 16hp engine is used, then we give a 25lb weight break, except the outlaw class they all have to weigh 500lbs.
  I think we have just about every age group and every budget covered.
Garry Kerr

Offline Burwell555

  • Hot Rod Hitman
  • Highly Mowtivated
  • ****
  • Posts: 2986
  • Karma: 12
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 07:15:33 pm »
You can't even know exactly what he has to spend and even knowing that doesn't elude to much unless everything is based off new prices. I have bought new stuff cheap, EC stuff cheap from guys or made my own that looks the part and performs just as well. Its not always the money. Think more outside the box. Build anything that is possible. Or even some claim migh be impossible. Shop for deals on the forums and swap meets but don't expect handouts. Then spend your money the stuff you can't usually find or should judt buy new, such as motor parts. Just my thoughts. Take it for what its worth.
Zach Burwell
#555 of Triple Nickel Racing


Wanna know a quick way to lose 8 pounds?!

Offline Smowkin Joe

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 07:41:44 pm »
budget. noun. The amount of money that is available for, required for, or assigned to a particular purpose. By defintion, every class is a budget class. Racer mentality will stretch and break budgets. Maybe a new name besides "budget class" should be considered.
Joe Erlenbusch

Offline Rooster

  • Global Pot Stirrer
  • Highly Mowtivated
  • ****
  • Posts: 8255
  • Karma: 73
  • Gender: Male
  • Winning is always fair!!
    • View Profile
    • Cut Loose Racing
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2011, 08:05:47 pm »
We don't have to assume that budget racers won't travel, they have shown us that already.
the US Open, in the budget classes basically one club came by themselves, and then we brought our budget mowers with us. Had it not been for the dirt devils, the stock single class would have flopped!
At the all American, there was 1 stock single and 3 stock twins..I think?
Our club is small, and full of budget racers. When I schedule a race, I have to be careful that I do not schedule it too far away from one or two or I won't have a race! More than once I have been told the guy just did not have the $40 or $50 for gas. Even with the offer of tow money many times I am a driver short because it wasn't payday, or "I had a short check".

As I have said, I have nothing against budget classes, but me...and everyone in my club...have alot against governors!
I have heard alot of complaints about teching gear regulated and rpm regulated classes. Teching plates is easy and gets rid of all the problems! Which is why the rest of the racing world uses plates instead of governors or gear rules!
budget. noun. The amount of money that is available for, required for, or assigned to a particular purpose. By defintion, every class is a budget class. Racer mentality will stretch and break budgets. Maybe a new name besides "budget class" should be considered.

Realy?    WOW!

The word budget also has uses as a verb & an adjective!
However the common use of the word budget, as used in this instance, actually refers to a cost controlled class or event. The definition you gave is actually rarely, if ever used to define a class or event. By the more common and correct usage none of the classes are budget classes. As per your definition to be a truly accurate budget class would require that the class regulations stipulated an amount of funds which could be spent on the mowers in that class.

I am pretty sure that everyone has a good idea of what we mean when we say "Budget Class"!
Bert stole my cookies!!
 I think he used them to bribe Ed into something naughty?

http://www.cutlooseracing.com

Offline TeamScoot

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 404
  • Karma: 3
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2011, 08:21:31 pm »
like you Rooster i like the idea of plates far better then governing or gearing

isnt there a class in WOO that has club issued "restrictor plates"? how competitive is that class
Founder of MoKart Industries
Inter Mountain Innovations
67 huffy
MHLMR

Offline Smowkin Joe

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Karma: 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2011, 09:03:51 pm »
Yes , really Rooster. As an adjective, any race mower could be described as a budget racer, be it in any class. Someone had , as a verb, budgeted funds to build said racemower. So wouldn't "cost controlled" class be a better description for it if, apparently, idiots like me TOTALLY missunderstand the context in which a word is used?
Joe Erlenbusch

Offline dandt4238

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Karma: 2
  • Gender: Male
  • Dean Schopf Jr. Dover, PA
    • View Profile
    • The PA Lawn Mower Racing Assoc.
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2011, 09:29:04 pm »
Quote
Seems like you would be a bit late to make the suggestion?

Tom Lavalette and I are the people who "created" the CPR class, my father and I were the the first to be on the track in the class.

Quote
How do you monitor a racers budget?

I don't know why people think I am trying to "control spending".  That is not the point.  As I said before, I like the roar and power of the BP class, I like watching the skill of building and driving a strong FX.
What I am trying to get people to realize is as promoters of our sport, we need to have a draw for the beginner racer, or family racing team that is affordable.  How we have been promoting our CPR class is, Build It, Learn it, Race It.  There are two reasons Tom and I went with the CP style frame.
1. Safety
2. ease of conversion to another class, when time and budget permit.

Quote
We don't have to assume that budget racers won't travel, they have shown us that already.

I have had conversations with many drivers that would travel to nationals if they knew they would not get beat on the track because of another drivers engine.  They are fine with being out driven by someones setup, or experience, but if the engines were all on the same page, everyone has a chance.
OK, maybe they would not all travel to the National Championship Weekend or the All American, but they may be more inclined to go to a national points race in their home state, or a neighbor state.  I'm not talking running a full schedule either, just supporting the racing that is closer.  Also I understand that things happen, emergencies, job loss, short week, these things can be expected in the current economic state.  But I think that a class like this would have a following on the national level.  Look at the IMOW class at this years USLMRA finals.  It was one of the largest classes.  Unfortunately, I think this class would take numbers away from the IMOW class, along with other classes, but if it were to bring in more members I think its a plus.  Let me also say that it would not have to be called the CPR class.  The rules would also not have to be the same, as long as we have class that would attract a new racer that does not have the money or resources to build a full blown v-twin.

Quote
but me...and everyone in my club...have alot against governors!
I have heard alot of complaints about teching gear regulated and rpm regulated classes. Teching plates is easy and gets rid of all the problems! Which is why the rest of the racing world uses plates instead of governors or gear rules!

The IMOW class is a technical nightmare as far as tech inspections are concerned.  The class is fun to watch when there is more than one racer that has the "formula" figured out.  The rules make it so everyone has the same mower, but the drivers that have it figured out are running right on the edge.  Many times have I seen results where someone pushed to far and was DQ'd at the end of a race.  There are some that love that part of it, and to those I say go for it, thats not for me and many others.  I like the idea of being able to change pulleys, and gears to try and beat the next guy.  I also use tire pressure as a set up tool, in the IMOW class you are limited to what you can do.
As far as the plates, they do not keep people from modifying the engine.  You can still have your engine ported, and polished, and make adjustments to make it run better even while running a plate.  A plate restricts fuel flow, not RPM.  The engine may not spin up as fast with plates, but can still be modified to get a higher RPM than stock.  This is why most of the local dirt tracks have gone to a crate motor.  Crate motors are racing motors, I will give you that, but they are racing for money, we are not.  Crate motors are sealed and opened only by the engine builder and the track officials.  I personally do not want that headache in my tech line.  Hold a tach against the spark plug wire is much faster.  Also, most of our races are expected to be ran in a certain amount of time, we don't have a home track, yet.  We try to get our racers to understand that when they show up at the track the mowers should be race ready.  Having our chapter hand out and collect plates at every race would be time consuming for the officials and racers.  I can't say that I have seen problems with the governors.  At factory RPM, and no modifications, I don't see them as being a problem.

Quote
Which is why the rest of the racing world uses plates instead of governors or gear rules!

Why does lawn mower racing have to be like the rest of the racing world?  Which has also declined in numbers!

Dean Jr.



Smokin Joe brings a good point.  I guess I shouldn't call it a budget class anymore.  Yes you can build any class mower on a budget, and one persons budget will differ from another.  It really doesn't matter what you call the class, pocket friendly, cost efficient, stock engine, doesn't matter. 
Is there room for a class that runs a stock engine on prepared frame, maybe not everywhere, but certainly somewhere.  I am glad to see that the PA Lawn Mower Racing Assoc. has created the class, and I sincerely hope that it works in the Tristate chapter of ARMA.  I can tell you that the CPR class is being looked at by USLMRA officials.  It may not be a touring points chasing class, but could be a support class for national points races.  I do believe, if promoted properly could be a huge draw to new members, and a possible stepping stone to the other classes.

Dean Jr.
Schopf & Frantz Family Mowtorsports
550 FX
505 CPR
161 CP and CPR
523 CPR
181 CP
and our newest driver
     *295 IMOW* Good Luck Ashers!

Offline Burwell555

  • Hot Rod Hitman
  • Highly Mowtivated
  • ****
  • Posts: 2986
  • Karma: 12
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2011, 09:40:06 pm »
Dean, if you and tom 'created' the CPR class, give it some time man!! 'Rome wasn't built in a day'. Its not gonna happen in one season. I don't mean to criticize either group, but I think arma only giving it a season to show popularity is 'not fair' for lack of better terms but I do however believe it will be ok because I think this class will explode and go main stream into nationals as well. 

Rooster I do agree with a lot of what you say, although I never assumed the 'budget' guys won't
travel. I have!! And did not have a nasty engine. Yep it was 'stock' by the rules.
Anyhow, money will always be an issue. Somebody will always have a faster engine. Is he smart enough to put it in the dirt?? Remember fellas, its all about chassi before horsepower comes along and nobody hits it perfect first time out. Might even take ya a season or two. I know of a veteran in this sport still changin his ride he has raced for several years. Just cuz we might get beat by somebodys wallet, don't mean you can't beat em on the race track.
Zach Burwell
#555 of Triple Nickel Racing


Wanna know a quick way to lose 8 pounds?!

Offline dandt4238

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 160
  • Karma: 2
  • Gender: Male
  • Dean Schopf Jr. Dover, PA
    • View Profile
    • The PA Lawn Mower Racing Assoc.
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2011, 09:48:18 pm »
Thanks Burwell, I know it won't happen over night, I just wanted conversation of how to make the negative effect of the economy not hurt our sport as much as others.  The CPR class is just an example, there are other things that can be done, we just need to think about them, and implement the good ones.
Dean Jr.
Schopf & Frantz Family Mowtorsports
550 FX
505 CPR
161 CP and CPR
523 CPR
181 CP
and our newest driver
     *295 IMOW* Good Luck Ashers!

Offline GRUBDIGGER

  • Custom Gear Picker
  • Mow-Forum Junkie
  • ***
  • Posts: 2235
  • Karma: 5
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2011, 10:14:40 pm »
I would like to take this opportunity to first promote Tri-State's first upcoming race at Chesapeake Harley Davidson on Sunday April 17th.  I will run all classes that there are mowers there to support.  I encourage all to come and run!  We look for a great day and great fellowship amongst the racing family.  This sport is not only for great competition, but the friendships that are made in doing so.  On this forum we "vent" our opinions, which may not be the opinions of the majority, but that right is what makes this country the Democratic USA.

As I recall lawnmower racing was started with "stock" mowers, which evolved into what it is today.  Even bringing back the "stock" engine classes there will still be "tweaking" involved to be the best, the fastest, the winner, which brings us back to where we are right now.  Understandably there are people that just want to race on a local level and do not have the resources available to be competitive on a National level and that is ok.  We don't discourage anyone.  The comment was made that Rome wasn't built in a day and that is true.  I have added something new to my mower every year and made some tweaks where need be.  I didn't just drop a wad of money into it from day one.  Money is not the main factor in a successful mower.  There are a lot of variables to being successful in a race to include, track conditions, other drivers, the handling of your own mower, and your own comfort level.

As far as the other comment of declining membership, I am not sure of the numbers, but ARMA is picking up local chapters all over the country.  Instead of adding all these "budget" friendly classes, let's focus on something greater than that.  What is the future of lawnmower racing??  Wouldn't it be the kids that you see at the track??  Why not institute a kids stock class on all levels?  Lower the age to 5 or 6.  Get the kids involved and give them something to do at a race.  I know many racers have kids and I don't see a lot of support for this class.  I was told years ago that a National show was already running too long, but yet we add Super Mod Twins and Mod Single.  Where's the love for the kids??  Aren't they gonna take over racing when we are all too old to do this anymore??  Then maybe all of us old fart can do some wheel chair racing instead.

Just my opinion.  By the way this is Melissa.  I am sure some of you noticed since there are no typos.   :P
JOHN HERRING
ARMA TECH
TRI-STATE RACING MOWER ASSC.
http://wwwtsrm.smfforfree.com/

Offline oldguyretired

  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 132
  • Karma: 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2011, 11:47:24 pm »
Melisa ,  thats good and no GREEN CAPS. Kudos to you.
Do what you can, with what you've got, where you're at.

Offline Toadworks

  • HEYMOW Welcome Wagon
  • Turf Warrior
  • **
  • Posts: 764
  • Karma: 12
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: racing mentality
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2011, 07:53:07 am »
Before the days of billet this and billet that, people were taking a part from this and a part from that and building an engine that would run up front. All those ideas, all the research and development from the years before is still valid. It's true that the new parts provide a larger safety margin and more reliability, but they are not REQUIRED to run up front.

Imagine being the one on the outside of the fence, looking in. Your thoughts run amok with visions of trophies and the flash of the camera. You HAVE to buy a pit pass. Grinning from ear to ear you head into the pits, and you go straight to that red rocket you saw tearing up the track in that last race. You make some small talk, ask a few questions and your dreams are shattered when the guy tells you he has over $2000.00 in his motor alone. You go home dejected and wish there was another way to get into the sport, but it's just too expensive.

This is the scenario, Dean is trying to get us to understand. We can be proud of the $2000.00 invested in our engines, but we also need to explain that there are other ways to get the job done. And they cost more TIME than MONEY. The IMOW class racers can be built for less than the cost of a billet flywheel. It is our duty to the sport to promote it, and a privilege to be part of a great family of friends. We all agree on what safety means and I'm sure that I could ask any of you a safety question and no matter what group you belong to, the answer would pretty much be the same. When we as a whole promote the sport, in an attempt to gain new members, we should try to be  on common ground there too. There are many ways to do something, some better than others, safer, more reliable, but if you don't have the funds to simply call (insert engine builder here) and order an engine, there are still ways to build a front runner. So the next time that great big excited kid is asking questions about your ride, be sure NOT to leave him thinking that the ONLY way to the front is with a FAT wallet. You might just get a new member for your club. And all of you know once bitten by the bug, you will invest some money into your ride.

 

anything