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Engine Help => Kohler Engines => Topic started by: Burton for Certain on February 13, 2012, 11:18:06 AM

Title: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on February 13, 2012, 11:18:06 AM
Mwsc will have their new and redesigned flywheels out next week sometime. They have raised fins  instead of the milled out ones previously. They will be adjustable timing two piece flywheels. They will have the single cylinder and twin cylinder flywheels.

Also in the coming months Mwsc will be releasing a full line of aftermarket parts for the single cylinder command. Forged cranks, billet connecting rods, roller shaft rockers, diamond short skirt pistons, and more.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 13, 2012, 11:25:29 AM
Drew will the parts work in the horizontal shaft command as well?
Single cylinder
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on February 13, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
Yes. The only difference is you will have to change is the oil pickup. We are building a horizontal fxs/supermod single that we will put in a pulling tractor in thethe winterengine to try to see if there is any interest in a ohv single class in nqs.
*You wont have to change it if you start with s horizontal block
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 13, 2012, 11:52:46 AM
OHv single class huh.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: saltyAMF on February 13, 2012, 05:14:30 PM
whats the price point on these single cyl flywheels?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on February 13, 2012, 05:20:41 PM
They're determining that this week. It'll cost more than their old one because there's more machine work to it and removing 95% more material to have raised fins instead of milled out fins. Their old ones were about $325. So im going to guess $350-$400
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: big jerm on February 13, 2012, 05:37:12 PM
I thought the old ones were more than that but will the new one be lighter?  The old one weighed like 10 lbs
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: TinRabbit on February 13, 2012, 05:44:18 PM
I've had several pr of bolt on roller rockers for the command single for about 7 yr now that work very well, were made by Wayne Pritts in ohio but havnt been able to contact him for past couple yrs. Used a pr of them on 2 70hp v-twins & 2 pr on command horz singles for pulling w/o issue. Bolted right on, 1.6 ratio & fit under factory valve covers :)
The ones Lakota has had out for ahwile look very much the same at Pritts rockers too. I've ben waiting a yr on pins & needles to see what MWSC comes up with for a line on these command singles (now discontinued in the upright form) dang good engines to build!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on February 13, 2012, 05:49:01 PM
The old billet wheel was $325 for the single im pretty sure.
I was told the single shaft roller rockers aren't like the twin rollers.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on February 13, 2012, 07:13:23 PM
If NQS ever considering running OHV singles... I'm all in! :) I've been trying to promote that for a while.

I seriously can't wait for them to come out with all that stuff. I'm just currently running 24CI Honda cause there's plenty aftermarket parts for them!

I think Julian Stahl Jr. mentioned to me before that they are expecting 60+HP on them! With stock reworked head! So this would be fun to see. I know my Honda won't ever keep up with them. I will have to get a kohler lol
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 13, 2012, 07:35:46 PM
You dont "have" to get a kohler. Theres alot more parts and info for the hondas then the kohler single at this point. I think you can get it done with a 390 just fine.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on February 13, 2012, 07:49:01 PM
The class will be around 31/33 cubes IF it ever materializes. It'll be this small so guys can run kawi, honda, briggs, Tecumseh, etc..the biggest issue is if people come to pull. If a guy only goes to one pr two pulls its not really worth it to have a class in an already busy weekend. That will be the determining factor.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 13, 2012, 09:04:43 PM
What singles are that big Drew. From what I have found most are around 90mm bore. Most arent 30cid. Or are they proposing room for added stroke and big bores. If it ever happens. It will be neat to see what there capable of though.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on February 13, 2012, 09:13:05 PM
I personally think it should run with the 30ci flatheads with 25ci limit and a different weight rule. It's very hard for a Honda to make it to 30ci and I'm sure others too.

I agree with flatheadpuller there tons of information about them in the go kart world. There's already billet rods, flywheels, billet heads, billet side covers, dome pistons, big valves, billet valve covers, billet roller rockers, billet lifters, etc I'm sure I'm missing something!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on February 13, 2012, 09:19:01 PM
Yes, that way you aren't stuck with stock bores and stroke and this way you can take a smaller cube motor and do what you want. That cubic inch would include most of the single ohv motors out there.and you wouldn't have what you have in the other classes with having to run a jones block etc.
These are just ideas for now. The thing about the 30 cube class is they're dying. They averaged 4 tractors last year. The light pro class(37.5 cube flathead kohler/julian finned recast block) is kind of taking over their spot. They also have a 39 cube twin class. Those two classes also run a lite outlaw against each other which is where the single ohv would fit in along with their own class if enough come.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on February 13, 2012, 09:30:30 PM
That sounds good! Just keep us updated. I'm on MWSC forums and stuff so I'm always watching a available classes that's money wise for me to pull. I just wish there was a class where they don't allow aftermarket blocks and billet OHV heads or recasted heads.. I'm hoping this new OHV single class will take off!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on March 08, 2012, 07:44:54 PM
Is there any progress made In the OHV sings class? I'm pretty sure I am the only one interested in this class!  :D
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on March 08, 2012, 07:48:13 PM
Realistically looking at 2014. If people want to build them im sure it can be added sooner. But rules should probably be written first.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on March 08, 2012, 08:06:48 PM
Well that gives me time to Dave my money for the motor!

I have a few ideas for the rules:

Same rules as the Pro-Twin and just add these,
Stock head and block. No aftermarket recast parts. Welded head allow?
Any brand Carb with 1.2" venturi limit. No fuel injection allowed!
Any valve size

This should be a good combo and still keep the cost down!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on March 08, 2012, 08:43:25 PM
How big of a cid? 32?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on March 08, 2012, 09:46:41 PM
28CI is a very reasonable.

Only kohlers that I know of are capable of having 32CI. So it makes everyone run a kohler! If we down the CI to 28CI there will be more varity of guys pulling with different brand engines. Like Honda, kawasawki, kohler, Briggs, etc... Honda and Briggs already have plenty of aftermarket parts for them in the go karting world. So they are easy to find compare to the Kohlers at this moment. And they have been doing it for years now.


I know if I push my Honda motor to 32CI it's a ticking time bomb bout ready to happen. It's very possible that I can pop the jug off very easily and it's not safe for people who don't know how to weld up the block and it's very costly to weld it all up.


Honda stock  GX390 23.8CI
Briggs 342cc Stock 20.9CI
Kawasawki 352cc stock 21.4CI
Honda Clone 420cc 25.6CI
Honda Clone 440cc 26.8CI
Kohler CH11-14 24.3CI
Kohler CH15-16 26.0CI


So basically what I'm trying to say,  there's room for improvement with all of these CI on the motors I have above.


28CI is where I think it should stand. Just my opinion!!! it still will make plenty power! And still not have tons of money in it!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on March 08, 2012, 09:51:49 PM
Ok. I figured people would want the kawi fc540v and 31 cube briggs and the 420 hondas
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on March 08, 2012, 10:22:01 PM
I didn't know about the other models that were closer to the 31/32 CI. Well perhaps it's up to the NQS to make that decision. I'm also hoping they will only allow stock head and block. And possibility a carb rule?

Well we got got plenty of time to wirte everything down on paper and make plenty parts for these engines!

Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Flipper on March 09, 2012, 12:29:14 PM
Ok. I figured people would want the kawi fc540v and 31 cube briggs and the 420 hondas

Any news on a Billet Flywheel for a FC540v yet?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on April 15, 2012, 11:43:29 AM
New twin flywheels are done for electric start and electronic ignition.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: wayne shaffer on May 06, 2012, 08:14:52 AM
Burton,
 I was woundering if you knew what block you need to start with to have them put the 3.780" bore sleeve in your block?
Thanks
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on May 06, 2012, 08:35:51 AM
We used a 15/16 Hp block. They are also making a new balance stub shaft so a bigger crank can be put in it.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: wayne shaffer on May 06, 2012, 10:26:39 PM
Thanks for the info. Glad to see the single parts are starting to come out.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 06, 2012, 07:24:36 AM
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z459/drewbur10/IMAG0146.jpg) (http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z459/drewbur10/IMAG0147.jpg)

Single cylinder command flywheel with electronic ignition. All from mwsc.

Single cyl rods and pistons are ready in multiple combinations of rod length and pin heights. Diamond racing pistons. Sizes from stock to 3.78". I am experimentig with a 4" piston and as long as it holds up through r&d it will be for sale also.
They also have stock replacement flywheel that is a little heavier and uses stock coil.

With the EI I am using a voodoo high output coil.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Tim Toleson on July 06, 2012, 07:30:53 AM
So with all these parts how much would it cost to get a single together legal for modx? And what kind of cubic inches are you getting?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 06, 2012, 07:36:25 AM
All Billet internal parts approx $1050-$1500 depending on flywheel setup and what you do to the crank. This motor is stock crank and stock valvetrain, ported heads and 4.00 piston. It's like 30.75 cubes. When the stroked cranks are done you cab get 38.5 cubes.

This motor is simple just to see how it runs at a comparative cubic inch to the briggs and tecumseh. Next month ill be getting a bigger cube motor to r&d .
That's the price if you put it together.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Tim Toleson on July 06, 2012, 07:49:28 AM
Thats kind of less than what i expected lol! Im running a 33ci briggs right now. I know a guy that has a stroked crank for his 31ci single i wonder what i could get out of a 33 with a stroked crank. Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 06, 2012, 07:53:56 AM
The company that made the roller rockers made the prototype correctly and the other 100 sets weren't right. So they're off getting new ones made then the roller rockers will be for sale as soon as they get them back.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 13, 2012, 11:39:03 AM
1.6:1 roller rockers.
 (http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z459/drewbur10/IMAG0156.jpg) (http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z459/drewbur10/IMAG0155.jpg)
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on July 13, 2012, 12:17:05 PM
I guess it requires a valve cover spacer or a new valve cover? I see a thick cork gasket to raise it up as a spacer.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 13, 2012, 12:19:35 PM
Yes, you are correct.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: TinRabbit on July 14, 2012, 07:09:09 PM
MWSC & Lakota both have these rockers that look ALOT alike, adjustable for the solid lifters, aluminum roller tip & ride on a fulcrum with a stabilizing shaft thru the center. Glad to see some renewed interest in these singles!
Noticed no guideplate, prob dont need one but a factoy plate could be used if one is needed.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: valleeracing on July 19, 2012, 10:36:35 PM
Yep will have me a set of those love midwestsupercub great people to deal with
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 23, 2012, 04:32:30 PM
First time out went well. Completely stock head with roller rockers, didn't even seat the stock valves. Valves float at 6000 rpm. Was still pulling hard when the valves floated. Cam is ground to pull to 7000 so there's still a lot left to be had once head work is done.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Caseracer on July 23, 2012, 05:43:30 PM
Drew,  which head are you using?  I've been comparing the combustion chambers on the various sizes.  The chamber I like best is from the 9-12.5 hp version.  I have been tinkering with the ports on one at it looks pretty good.  There's a very square corner on both ports that can be smoothed conciderably.   Also, does MSC offer a stronger spring for the single?

(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll201/Caseracer/th_commandcombustionchamber.jpg) (http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll201/Caseracer/?action=view&current=commandcombustionchamber.jpg)

Jack Jones
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 23, 2012, 06:14:52 PM
They have springs but the cam I am running is a welded stock cam so it can only run about 100 pounds of spring pressure. the lift is above .450
The one I have now is a 12.5. The new head is a 17 Hp head that he combustion chamber will be welded up.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: valleeracing on July 23, 2012, 08:57:08 PM
Yes I am running there springs worked great so far will see after I put cam in
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on July 29, 2012, 08:55:06 PM
Well after fighting all my dumb mistakes Saturday (electrical fire, carb falling off engine almost) got it running correctly Saturday and found out that the stock cam snaps after 6800 rpm. So motor version 2 will be at vestaburg. 32 cubes and this one will have a Billet roller cam and will actually have headwork done to it instead of stock valves and ports. Will keep ya'll updated.
*it was my fault the cam snapped. I was at max rpms 40' off the turn. I should have ran a lot faster gear. I was just too lazy to change it.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 02, 2012, 09:59:32 PM
Roller cam blanks should be done by next week.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: valleeracing on August 02, 2012, 11:14:31 PM
Price on the roller cam and lifters drew
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 02, 2012, 11:20:08 PM
Idk on lifters. Rockers are $120 and I think cam blank is $140.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 06, 2012, 10:08:16 AM
The balance shaft delete is in testing. You will need this if you go over 3.25" stroke.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Caseracer on August 06, 2012, 01:58:45 PM
Drew, is there a version of the balance shaft for the stock crank gear or does it only work with the straight gear on the stroker?

Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 06, 2012, 02:06:47 PM
For this crank Julian said taking the stock crank gear off and moving it over to the billet crank. Not sure what the long term plans are.
They're basically cutting the balance shaft off at the gear and making an arm to hold it down so it still drives the oil pump.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: valleeracing on August 06, 2012, 03:22:08 PM
Good idea is this a new billet piece or modified stock
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 06, 2012, 03:23:07 PM
Modified stock. There's not much stress on it.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 08, 2012, 11:49:49 AM
Single roller rockers are in stock and cam blanks are in stock. Cam gears are limited so first come first served until they can get more machined.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: big jerm on August 08, 2012, 12:18:16 PM
Any updates on the 4" piston in the singles
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 08, 2012, 12:27:57 PM
Still on the dyno. I really don't think you'll need it until everyone else is running a Kohler. The last motor I ran was only 29.5 cubes and it was more than enough and I didn't have the bugs worked out yet. The one for PA is over 35 cubes. It still has the 3.78 piston in it.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Tim Toleson on August 08, 2012, 12:49:08 PM
where are you running in PA?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 08, 2012, 12:52:57 PM
The uslmra national race in greensburg on the 18
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Tim Toleson on August 08, 2012, 12:55:12 PM
ohh alright. Sounds like you got a heck of a motor built. wish i had time and money to invest in r&d like that! pretty awesome though. got any videos of the engine/mower in action?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 08, 2012, 01:02:34 PM
No, forgot to turn the camera on in Iowa. I'll take video at greensburg.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on August 15, 2012, 03:26:53 PM
I'm assuming you have heard nothing about a future NQS class the OHV single. I guess there's no interest besides a few people. And I'm sure there's a few tractors across America that have a OHV conversion on their flathead. Like the Odd Couple twin engine tractor that runs in OSS. But he only needs one engine running lol Well I was kinda hoping for Interest. I think NQS should add classes along with technology. Now days most engines are OHV. Hardly any flat heads anymore. Mostly OHV twin or Singles!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 15, 2012, 03:28:43 PM
If anything happens they'll add ohv to the 30 cube class. 30 cube flatheads on nitro and ohv 30 cubes on alky with a 1.2 carb.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: GRUBDIGGER on August 15, 2012, 03:47:52 PM
HEY DREW, SINCE KOHLER IS NO LONGER MAKING A SINGLE COMMAND,ARE THEY MAKING ANY PARTS FOR THE COURAGE? :confused: :confused:
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 15, 2012, 04:05:38 PM
As of now, no. Still doing r&d on the command single. Still in the early stages of r&d in the head. Valve size, cam, etc.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: GRUBDIGGER on August 15, 2012, 04:07:26 PM
JUST WONDERING SINCE THE COURAGE TOOK THE PLACE OF THE GOOD COMMAND!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on August 15, 2012, 07:05:41 PM
If anything happens they'll add ohv to the 30 cube class. 30 cube flatheads on nitro and ohv 30 cubes on alky with a 1.2 carb.

Well I think that sounds really fair! Billet heads allowed?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 15, 2012, 07:14:01 PM
Not on ohv. You'll make a lot more power than the flatheads the way it is.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on August 15, 2012, 10:19:57 PM
Yes that's very true! But hopefully they will go that route. That seems like a fair deal to me. Just add a set of rules to the 30 cube insted of adding a new class.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 23, 2012, 01:12:45 PM
Well MSC is getting multiple orders in now. So if you want to have one of these together for next year you better call and get in line.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Cromwell C4 on August 23, 2012, 03:19:43 PM
You guys won't be disappointed with these engines and the new parts. I recently built one for a guy on the US national circuit and it's doing well. It is only a 30ci motor and it runs with the best of the Briggs and Tecumseh engines out there and we are still working the bugs out.  
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: big jerm on August 23, 2012, 03:46:04 PM
Tyler that's a single ohv right
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 23, 2012, 04:03:28 PM
Yep. The motor he built and my motor will be at uslmra finals. Come take a look at the future of cp/mod-x.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: TinRabbit on August 24, 2012, 09:14:53 PM
and these ohv engines are a blast! they can be found in repair shops boneyards, picked up cheap or even for free ;) 
just a tid bit of a story from this year, cv16 flipped to horz for pulling, did a 3 angle valve job, micro polish crank & cam. Installed a carter #26, that is it & began pulling at 3800rpm beating a flatty with a vogel rod & piston, reground cam, worked valves & then ate a few 20hp twin cyl tractors in the twin class........repeatedly  >:D   these engines will revive alot of interest just like the v-twins did a few yrs ago, great lil engines!
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on October 24, 2012, 10:58:10 AM
Well the r&d is still continuing, but after the first year I would say results were better than expected. Had fastest lap times of the class every event. Consistantly the second fastest lap time of all prepared chassis behind chuck Miller's lap times. Had fastest prepared chassis lap time at uslmra finals. MSC is stocking up on parts as we speak.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: big jerm on December 13, 2012, 08:52:07 PM
what size and kind of carb are you running on these singles or what do u suggest atleast
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on December 13, 2012, 08:53:31 PM
What class?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: cubcadet70 on December 13, 2012, 09:25:10 PM
JUST WONDERING SINCE THE COURAGE TOOK THE PLACE OF THE GOOD COMMAND!

Actually they just came out with a new line of engines thats called CH270-CH440 I believe them engines replaced the good ol command singles. But the problem is it looks too much like the clone 420cc engines with new kohler stickers! ;)
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: big jerm on December 14, 2012, 10:23:50 PM
Fxs
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burwell555 on December 14, 2012, 11:55:19 PM
I'd say a Tilly is your best bet in the fxs class
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Cromwell C4 on December 15, 2012, 12:00:36 AM
An HR Tillotson or a big Mikuni would work very well, depending on your head flow numbers, camshaft design, and CI.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Darkviper on December 15, 2012, 12:24:08 AM
I say depends on how much time are you willing to spend on tuning it.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on December 15, 2012, 10:21:02 AM
What cubic inch do ya want?
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: big jerm on December 15, 2012, 08:10:15 PM
I have a 16hp I plan on keeping stock crank and have mwsc bore it to fit that 3.78 piston so what ever that adds up to. 
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on December 15, 2012, 08:24:57 PM
Put a tilly hr-191 on it. That'll put ya at 34 cubes.
I lied, 3.78x3.78x2.64x.7854= 29.62. But ya still use the hr191.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Single Parts
Post by: Burton for Certain on January 22, 2013, 08:10:46 PM
Midwest has billet cam blanks now for the single. You can do flat rapper or roller with these blanks.
Title: Re: MWSC Command Parts
Post by: Darkviper on January 22, 2013, 08:33:40 PM
It all depends how much you wana mess with it. You could like i do mess with it every race with keihin carb or go little easyer with tilly.