Heymow - Lawnmower Racing Forum
Mower Building / Setup Help => Driveline => Topic started by: Squidd on December 16, 2006, 09:04:20 pm
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A lot of interest has been shown in selecting the "correct" tranny...With the Peerless 700 being the tranny of choice for racing...
Whenever someone posts a pic or mentions a foote 3 speed several will respond with "It's Junk"..."make a door stop out of it"...
And then a couple will respond with "Yeah, But...." "Sami's running one""Squidds running one" ..
And the the "Yeah But..." (light, governed, etc...)
So I thought I'd do a side by side tear down so we can all see just what the differences are and whether we should run 'em or junk 'em...depending on the application...
Obviously they have been placed and running in stock mowers of many different variety for many years, so we can assume they are not going to "blow up" just sitting in the garage...
But, how much power do we want to chance putting to them...and do they have a place in our builds...???
The "Victims"...782 Peerless 5 speed and standard Foote 3 speed of the 2010 or 2210 variety (exact model unknown at this point...)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_770foote1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/770foote1.jpg)
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First thing you notice is how "similar" they look at first glance...Other than the Foote being a "H" pattern 3 speed and the 700 a R-N-1-2-3-4-5 in line pattern...Output gear on same side
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote3.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote3.jpg)
Case shape is almost the same, and mounting pattern "identical"...with 6 bolt pattern and input shaft locations interchangeable...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_70foote2.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/70foote2.jpg)
So if you have a Foote and later switch to 700...they will be a direct bolt in swap...
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First differences we see are in the output shaft and drive gear...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote4.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote4.jpg)
The 700 has a 5/8" shaft with a 32 tooth spline "grabbing" the gear and an "C" clip holding it on..
The Foote has a 1/2" shaft with 1/8" moon key for the gear, same "C" clip retainer..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote5.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote5.jpg)
But the actual counter shaft bushings are identical at 5/8"
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On the top case we can see the identifying R-1-2-3 "H" pattern on the foot and the shifter shaft on the 700...
This particular Foote has a short shaft front shift adaptor, but they can also be forun with a more typical long rod and ball shift rod...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote6.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote6.jpg)
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Opening them up we start to see some differences...
Foote has 8 bolts holding case halves together...700 has 6...
First glance, the Foote looks to have bigger wider stronger gears...!!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700fooote7.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700fooote7.jpg)
Gotta clean that :censored: out to really see what we have...
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Cases themselves seem to be of the same material and thickness...
Here you can see the shifter "forks" of the Foote in the top half of case...and extra reinforcing ribs in the bottom...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote8.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote8.jpg)
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With both cases open, lets take a look at the input shaft...
Both have a 5/8" X 1 1/8" shaft with a 3/16" moon key...
Both have needle bearings (2) in the lower case supporting the shaft...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote10.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote10.jpg)
The 700 has a full 5/8" shaft (including bearing surface) with a 32 spline and clip holding the pinion gear.
The Foot steps to 9/16" for the bearing surface and then to 1/2" with 3/32" key for input gear.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote9-1.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote9-1.jpg)
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From the tear down that foote makes the peerless look weak
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Looking at the gear sets and counter shafts, we see the some of the biggest differences between the two...
Foots has 5/8" shafts full length...and carries the "key" shaft retainers throughout the gear sets...smallest being the 1/8" key in the "Spur" gear with 3/16" in the shift gears...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote11.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote11.jpg)
700 starts with 5/8" bushings as well then steps up to 3/4" and 7/8" on counter shaft and 1" and 1 1/8" on the shift shaft...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote12.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote12.jpg)
First impression would be "Look how big the 700 shafts are..and the little keys in the Foote...700 must be stronger"
But take another look at the shift keys... 1/4" wide, but only the "tip" of the triangle engages a gear at any particular shift point....where the Foote has full 1/2" of 3.16" key in every gear but spur...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote13.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote13.jpg)
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Cleaned up and going back together...
Basic layouts are similar with "twisting" shifter fork in 700 and the sliding shifter cogs in the Foote being the visual differences...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote17.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote17.jpg)
One area common to both (as well as 800 and 900 transaxels as well as others) is the brass bushings....
They have a small "triangle" to position them in the case and to keep them from rolling...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700footw15.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700footw15.jpg)
And a matching "notch" in the lower case half...Be sure to seat these properly, or you will experience "binding" when you torque the halves together...Probably the most common mistake in assembly... (yes, been there, done that too...)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote14.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote14.jpg)
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But run that FOOTE and see how far it takes you with a real hot motor.
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Before we close them up lets take a closer look at the "shift forks" on the top half of Foote...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_700foote18.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/700foote18.jpg)
Being a thin steel, they can bend and bind under "rough" shifting... Clutch in and precision shifting avoids "jambing" gears...
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But run that 500 and see how far it takes you with a real hot motor.
not sure i follow george?
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Shaft wise, bushing wise, bearing wise and case wise they are very similar...
The biggest difference (as George is alluding to) is the "keys" in the shafts and gears of the Foote are a much weaker setup (think "shear key" on flywheel) than the 32 tooth splines of the 700 shaft/gears...
On a lower torque setup, lower HP, governed rpm engine (such as Sami's SS) they will run and hold up just fine...
It's when you start applying high "twisting" torque (bigger motor) or "snap and shear" from popping clutch and jamb shifting or wheel hop, that the weaker keys will become apparent...
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Fine presentation Squidd,that will learn me alot. Kevin
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Other interesting notes while I was tearing thru them...
Shift gear ratios:
Foote, 1st = 4:1, 2nd = 2.75:1, 3rd = 1.75:1
700, 1st=8.75:1, 2nd=7:1, 3rd=4.5:1, 4th=3:1, 5th=2.5:1
So yes...on this 700 the 1:1 countershaft gearing is actually 4th rather than 3rd for the 3:1 ratio we normally look for...
This is the second tranny I've seen set up this way (and will run in 4th) normally 5th would be 1.25:1 and 1st would be 7:1 with the 3:1 in third...
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My point was while they appear very similar in build the FOOTE will not hold up to racing with a hot motor. You won't finish many races.
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I just tore a 500 and a 700 down last week and they are pretty much identical.
rocky i have torn down a true 500 and it lookes weak as snot gears were huge but shift keys were weak and overall i kinda was wondering how they made it work in the first place not my choice in trannys
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rocky i have torn down a true 500 and it lookes weak as snot gears were huge but shift keys were weak and overall i kinda was wondering how they made it work in the first place not my choice in trannys
Yep you're right Matt... that one has been soaking a day or two, as the grease in it was REALLY UGLY. Upon inspection it does have lighter shift keys.
500 v. 700 thread coming soon guys.
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:woot:
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Good Job Squidd! Very interesting! Thank You! :twothumbsup:
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hmm,now do i buy a peerless,or find a way to make the foote stronger, im thinking in february i might have to do some maching on a foote to see if i can make it superior to the 700.
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I think the bottom line here is...
The 600 and 820 transaxles...and the 700 and 350/400 tyranny's (after being reworked by Don) are the units of choice...Proven reliable and recommended.
Snapper wheel drives, MTD Vari drives and Hydodrives of any type should be avoided at all costs...
Everything else... is minimal as far as reliabilty...
BUT... there's a lot of them out there and a lot of them running in races...
Not everybody is pushing 50 hp with a thunder twin and if they can afford that motor they sure as heck can afford to upgrade tyranny's..
But there are also a lot of "governed" racers and classes out there with a lot less torque Hp and rpm running thru them that can "get away" with these "lesser" tyranny's and transaxles....
My point is..they are not made out of glass and toothpicks....and will hold up to reasonable runs for some people depending on class and motor output...and how they treat them..
If your "hot" or think you are...then by all means bypass these type units and go with the proven choices...But if your running a lower hp class, or governed class or "stock mod" and this is all you have...
Don't let it keep you from racing, while you wait on the "chosen one" to come along...
Run what you got till it blows..know what you got and work it within it's limits...
And upgrade as time/parts/money becomes available....
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hmm,now do i buy a peerless,or find a way to make the foote stronger, im thinking in february i might have to do some maching on a foote to see if i can make it superior to the 700.
Weak point is the "keys" vs. splines...weakest is the 3/32" key holding pinion to input shaft...
Keys shear under pressure either "snap" pressure or excessive torque pressure...
Splines are much stronger in torsional shear...
Everything else is pretty even...
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jeeeze randy, i knew you were gonna compare the trannys and do a good job, but thanks for so much detail. Its a real big help :+1:. But just think, if foote went with splines instead of those tiny shift keys, there would be another excelent race tranny in the world of mower racing.........stupid foote :bash:
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My experience with the foote is simmilar. I ran a foote in a rear engine cub cadet with a stock ungoverend 12 hp briggs for 3 years and no problems. When I built my SP with a built motor it ate the input gear out of 3 of them. And I have a buddy with a SP with a simmilar motor and did the same thing. I have changed to the 700 and had no tranny problems sence. So I agree the foote may work with a IMOW and a mild AP but that is about it.
Excellet thread Randy!
Paul
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what if there were a way of locking the foote into a gear permanently, would this solve most of its drawbacks??
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Randy, have you tried seeing if the shafts from the 700 will fit in the Foote? And if that is so, does the input gear spline up with the drive gear? Would be nice if the innards could be swapped over to the foote.
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Cases are not interchangeable...biggest difference being the 3 speed "H" pattern and in line shifter forks not being compatable...
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what if there were a way of locking the foote into a gear permanently, would this solve most of its drawbacks??
Maybe, but I haven't tried it...or know anyone that has...
With the keys shearing being the biggest issue, you would "think" you could weld the gears...but then your into welding "dissimilar" metals (similar to welding gear clusters in transaxle diffs) ...heating shafts and possible missalignment of gears....
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It would be sick if there was a mower racing company that made conversion kits for footes to replace the stupid keyed shaft with one that was splined. The problem with that would be that you would have to get gears with splines on them to which means lots of money... :grumpy:
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has anyone looked into the foote five speed trannys
they shift in line just like the 700 and also very similar insides
i got one but haven't put much thought into using it
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I have attached a picture of a foote trans that I took off a huffy mower I have.
I am planning on putting it on my go-kart which has a Briggs flathead which makes 13hp@8000rpm. I would like to know if it will hold up in this application.
The kart itself is pretty light, and i'm only 145lbs. Plus, since I'm not racing this in any organized form, i'm not going to be making and lightning fast ramming shifts on it either.
I need to use an actual trans/gearbox because it needs to sit up front with a driver and the chain coming off the side will go all the way to the back axle.
:confused:Also, what did Squidd use to clean/soak the grease out of those gearboxes with? I need to do the same to mine and what kind and how much grease to I put back in the gearbox once its clean? :confused:
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/Hotrodboy91/CooperKlipperAuction003.jpg
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/Hotrodboy91/CooperKlipperAuction002.jpg
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n183/Hotrodboy91/CooperKlipperAuction001.jpg
Thanks in advance!
-Casey
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GREAT job randy...now someone has to do a side-by-side of Transaxles including the Peerless 818 and the MTD F-N-R transaxle. I'd LOVE to see what the inside of an 818 looks like!
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I got a busted up 818 you can look at...It's the 820 you want to see the inside of...
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Well so far my 3 sp foote is still together, with a 20hp. But I dont have a lot of time on it yet, just some back yard bashing and one real race.
But I'm happy to hear the mounting and input shafts are the same as the 700, so down the road if I change I dont have to redesign that part of the mower.
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What is the part on a Foote that breaks anyway?
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why cant you just make stronger keys and a stronger shift fingers
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why cant you just make stronger keys and a stronger shift fingers
Somebody with a mill and a little time on there hands...might have something there...
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so it can be done? will that make them the same
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will that make them the same
Ummm no...one will still be a Foote 3 speed and the other will still be a Peerless 700 5 speed...
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I have a question that may be a little off the subject..... Is a peerless tranny with 4 gears (1-2-3-4) foward and R; a true 700. It was originally on a walk behind mower and the tag is gone.
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If it looks like the one in this thread then it probably is...They came with 3-4 and 5 speeds ...
Does yours have "spacers" where the extra gear would have/should have gone..?
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What is the part on a Foote that breaks anyway?
What is the weak link on a foote? Is it those keys, or a shaft?
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Little bit of both...
Now...if someone had the time and money to experiment...
Those shafts are pretty much a straight shot, so get a hardened shaft, milled to a 1/4" x1/4" key and slot the gears to match...Get hardened Keys...
Cut a bigger groove in the ring and pinion gear and replace with steel pieces
Output gear can be left at 5/8" as well and standard chain sprockets are available...
Would it equal a fully built 700?? probably not, but would be a heck of a lot stronger contender than it is now...
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Yes, it has a block where the 5th gear would be.
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I may have some hardened tool steel 5/8 bar somewhere. And it wouldn't take long to find some hardened shim stock.
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Would it equal a fully built 700?? probably not, but would be a heck of a lot stronger contender than it is now...
I think in the right hands they would have potential...
Kind of like Don at G-Team and his 350/400s...Pretty much says you shouldn't run "UNTIL" he has a chance to build them up...then they are pretty much bullet proof...
All it takes is a bit of "tinkering" to work the bugs and soft spots out...Could be the new contender...Certainly a lot less moving parts...
Way I see it , it could even be stripped further to a two speed....Pit and Racing on one shaft....and that would deal with the weak shifter..
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I got a busted up 818 you can look at...It's the 820 you want to see the inside of...
I said 818 instead of an 820, because the transaxle on my Ford is an 818. So i wanna see pics of what it looks like all apart.
Also, whats the difference between a 818 and a 820?
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so do you think i should look for a new trany cause i got a Foote and an wanna beat on it hard
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Quite a bit of difference 3/4 axle versus 1 inch xle just to start with. Take yours apart and see the inside for yourself, why ait for someone else to do the work for ya.
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well, i have 2 good reasons, #1 its an average of 34* outside, and i dont have a heated garage, and #2, i have never took a tranny apart, and i'm VERY good at losing parts, so i dont wanna ruin my perfectly good 818 just to "LOOK" at it.
Plus, which one has the 1" axle? i tried to measure mine, but i couldnt get the wheel off.
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820 has the 1'' axel
billys got one for sale
http://www.heymow.com/index.php/topic,2393.msg24687.html#msg24687
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i've found that if you have or find a foot trans with a brake mounted to the housing the out put shaft can be fliped around so instead of a 1/2 in shaft it will be 5/8 witch makes it stronger. also the input shaft from an older modle the ones with external c clips are 5/8 all the way and the steele gear is pressed on the shaft with no c clips
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When I took my Foote 5 speed tranny apart, it didn't have the same fork setup. Instead it has a single fork that slides back and forth directly from the shifter. It was a lot heavier in construction than the one you have here. I was actually surprised at how well built this model was. My plan: run it till' she breaks... then I might consider another option, or just go with another Foote since they sell for half the cost and take 5 minutes to bolt in.
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check out the for sale section. I have 3 of the footes for sale. Email me if interested. dandt4238@yahoo.com
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right now I'm running a Foote and so far i only had 1 probole with the snap rings and it seams to be working good and I'm running an 18hp ungoverned and it's still alive anyways I'm gonna get a perless wen I get the money
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tks squidd that was really helpful for the guys like me tryin to build a mowchine that will withstand what i am goin ta thro at it.. this site has been vary helpful just in what i have read so far.. 8)
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hey squidd and george mighty fine presentation!!! i agree peerless is better than foote!but,tear a 5 speed foote down and according to my 5 speed foote has an identical trans as the seven hundred try it !i dont know abouit the three speed but the five speed!
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NO it is NOT! We've been down this road before!!
Yes, they have torn both down, several of them in fact, way back!
NO, you are NOT smarter than all the mower racers before you!
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Im new to the lawn mower racing world,as u can probably tell by this question. I have a peerless gear-div tecumseh mod708b. I was wondering if this is the same thing u are talking about when u talk about the 700.
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Yes, the 700 "series" goes from the 700-700-001 to the 700-700-093 AND includes the 700-700 (A-B) to the 700-799 model numbers....
Yours would be a 700-708b model of the 700 series we talk about...
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Parts breakdown on your 708b and others is found here Rookie...
http://www.odref.com/peerless/700-SERIES/
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Ok thanks,are all of these peerless 700s the same and if so why all the model numbers?And if they are not is my 708b a good canidate for racing or should I hunt for different one.
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Nope not all the same.... they vary in the number of gears, (some 4 speed, some 5 speed), gear ratios, output ratio, etc. etc. Most parts are interchangeable to a certain extent from one to the other however. i.e. they will all fit in the other cases, they should all fit on the other shafts, but gear ratios on individual gears may be something you want to take a look at. Count teeth on the gears and divide to see how close you are.
Any 700 series is a good candidate for build, some are simply better than others as a result of incorporating steel input and bevel gears from factory.
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anybody heard of a foote 2600 series 5 speed gearbox, came out of a rear engine john deere mower! get some pics as soon as i get back out to the shop!
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I got a foote out of a junk yard a year back and this year I am going to try it out in the IMOW class. I took it apart and cleaned it up and two trys later, I had a working tranny. If it dies on me I will race prep a 700 and use it.
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anybody heard of a foote 2600 series 5 speed gearbox, came out of a rear engine john deere mower! get some pics as soon as i get back out to the shop!
I have the same transmision, was it off a John Deere 68?
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like this one here?
http://www.m-and-d.com/pdfs/foote/2600.pdf (http://www.m-and-d.com/pdfs/foote/2600.pdf)
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That's the one.
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same one i have, anybody have any opinions on this tranny, is it better than the h-pattern foote?
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I never actually used mine, simply because the gears were so badly worn, but I do know that they only let you shift up one gear at a time, then you have to move the shifter back slightly to move up to the next gear. The casing is made rather cheaply so I wouldn't think it would be much good for racing.
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I took a couple pics. The first is the 2600 5 speed, the second I'm not sure of. It's a 3 speed cross shift. Soory about the poor quality, I had to convert them to .gif files
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How do they compare price wise? Would a foote be more for a single clinder stock flathead, super stock type of class and a peerless would be more for engines that make more power?
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i like the Foote trannys and if i do break it witch i never have nobody wants them so i get them for free :lol:
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I will soon find out if the foote 5 speed is good for racing. building one for my wife.
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I live up in the sticks of northern minnesota and in school i use a mill almost everyday. using my knowledge of the mill, i made the attempt to make a hybrid of a foote and a 700. It took about 40 hours to complete. i milled a splined shaft and gears. i took the basic blueprints of a 700 and built it in a 3 speed with a foote design. i put all new bearings and such in and made a new imput shaft and everything. after i was done i tapped a plug with a breather tube and filled it with a 5weight oil similar to ATF. It now is a hybrid gearbox. foote case with rigid design and 700 technology. i have run it on my 1/4 mile dirt oval in the back yard for approx. 150 hours and has never broken apart and has worked smooth. on a 3D cad design program i have the blueprints if anyone would like them.
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whoops lol. if nothing else, can you post some pics of it? im sure more people than just me would like to see your handy work
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yeah i will post some photos soon... i want to pull it out after the next race to make sure everything inside is still perfect and working as it should... also i need to check for wear points and such. i shall take some pics of it interior and out and put them up for ya'll
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Any luck with the photos and teardown status of your hybrid foote/700?
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Great thread! This is what is good about the winter.. I get to spend time learning and reading some of these older posts..
I always wondered about that old three speed I had behind the garage.
Thanks for the info and the pics were really helpful.. :)
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i'll have my foote 5spd and my peerless 800 out soon (in the next 3 weeks) is there any interest in seeing these side by side? i'd be happy to take some pics for you guys.
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Neither unit is all that racer-friendly. You need an 820 transaxle or 700 transmission to be competitive.
Bert