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Mower Building / Setup Help => Project Builds => Racing Mower Builds => Topic started by: Running on Empty on September 26, 2008, 08:49:24 am

Title: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 26, 2008, 08:49:24 am
Build for ARMA 09 season
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 26, 2008, 09:22:23 am
Hey Guys!

I just want to start off by saying what a great forum this is.  I have been reading the threads in this forum for about a year and a half now, and I have learned alot, and I am eager to learn more.  I have been tinkering around with lawn tractors since I was about 10, and now it is time to build a real racer.  The chassis I really want to start with is a mid 80's Gilson.  I like the way this mower looks, and I like the way it "feels."  I also have 3 of them so there are plenty of donor parts.  I know there are a couple other guys on here that are racing Gilsons, but I have not seen any racing a chassis like mine.  Has anyone built one of these before?  The closest thing I could find were the pictures of Lee's mowchine on G-teams slide shows.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2059.jpg) (http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/100_2059.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2064.jpg) (http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/100_2064.jpg)
The rear  end is where I am kind of stuck.  I was thinking about boxing it in and reinforcing it on the inside so I will have a place to mount the live axle.  From the measurements I have made, the bearings for the axle would need to be placed close to where the current axle is mounted to keep the frame sitting parallel to the ground.


(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2068.jpg) (http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/100_2068.jpg)
Front view with the new axle.


(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2069.jpg) (http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/100_2069.jpg)


(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2070.jpg) (http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/100_2070.jpg)


(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2072.jpg) (http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/100_2072.jpg)

Any suggestions you guys have would be greatly appreciated.  I am planning on starting out either in the Sportsman or Mox X classes with BSMRA.  I would also like to run at GSR.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 26, 2008, 09:56:12 am
You need to tilt your King Pin rearward... this is called caster.. it does many different things.. It helps to straighten the steering wheel when you come out of a corner and it helps to get the jacking effect when you turn.

You need your king pin tilted in at the top.. This is called KPI ( King Pin Inclination). Both of these will help to wedge the chassis and help the inside left tire lift and transfer weight off of the right front to the right rear.

Here is some reading material as you build you can have somethings in the back of your mind.

Front Axle Design (http://www.extrememowers.com/folder1/fourm/index.php?topic=263.0)

Cross Wedge (http://www.extrememowers.com/folder1/fourm/index.php?topic=963.0)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 26, 2008, 11:06:55 am
Wheel horse racer, 

Thanks for the info.  That is a great thread.  Exactly what I was looking for when I was building my front end.  I totaly agree with the caster.  I am planning on gringing the end plates off the beam and adding plates that will alow adjustable castor.  I didnt think of that when I welded them on.  I dont know who's advise to follow when it comes to KPI though.  From what I read in the build threads, Don doesnt like KPI, and George uses it on all of his builds.  The end result the way that I understand it is personal preference.  My problem is I am completely new at this and do not have experience running a machine with or without KPI.

I am planning on making some new spindles anyway that will allow me to gain some ride height adjustment, so I may weld the next ones up with 10 degrees of KPI.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 26, 2008, 12:29:03 pm
I would say build with as much adjustablility as possible.. then you can fine tune..

The KPI does make steering a little difficult as you get more resistance in the steering wheel when you turn... but the payback are worth it.. ten laps and I am tired..

You can use a HEAVY spring to help and to turn the wheels to the right to reduce the effort... I just haven't done that yet..

I just put my inside tire on a 2 x 4 on it's side.. turn the wheel to the left, then adjust the heim joints so that my front tires sit flat... Then I know my tires will be flat in the turn..

Then utilizing the spindle spacers.. I can fine adjust my wedge by raising and lowering the left front spindle... to loosen or tighten the chassis..

 

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 26, 2008, 12:50:04 pm
Will Do!!!!  Planning on making new spindles and adding the KPI this afternoon.  I will post pics when I get it complete.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 26, 2008, 09:29:33 pm
I have all of the parts for the new spindles cut and drilled.  Planning on welding everything up in the morning.  The new spindles will include 10 degrees of KPI.  Are most of you running 1/4" plate for your end plates?  That is what I have on the current set-up in the posted pictures, but I need to go to 2" wide so I am able to include castor adjustment.  Aparently 1/4" x 2" plate is not easy to find.  Went to 3 diffrent stores today and nobody had it.  I know a place that will have it but it is 45 mins from me.  If I need to I will make the trip next week.  I have a piece of 3/8"x2" but I think that is over kill and I only have a 110v welder and will not get good penetration.

I am looking for a decent used pair of 8x8 4 on 3 rear rims.  Anyone got anything they want to sell?  I am on a budget with this mowchine, so I do not need anything fancy.  My wife and I just had our first child 5 months ago and funds are definatly on the tight side!!!!

I am also looking for a good rear axle.  I would like to run a 1.25."  Anyone have any suggestions as to the best place to get one of those from?  I know there are a lot of places that sell them, but where do you guys usually go for them?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 26, 2008, 10:19:24 pm
Ty,

I see your from Bear Creek WI.  My brother-in-law and sister-in-law live there.  I am up there quite a bit.  I really dig your monster mowers!!!!  That is some cool stuff!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 27, 2008, 08:22:48 am
I don't run caster adjustment.. I set mine at 14 degrees and weld it.. it makes it very aggressive and actually tiring to drive.. but it works great... if it's too aggressive.. you can use a HEAVY spring to help and pull the steering to the left...

BUT.. you have to factor  in the rake of the chassis... the more tilt in the chassis the more it removes castor degrees if you measure perpendicular to the tube you used for an axle...

You need to know the amount of rake you will have before you set the castor angle for sure...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 28, 2008, 03:16:06 am
Got the new spindles welded up today.  The new ones are in the front and the old ones are in the rear.  With the new setup I will have almost 2" of ride height adjustment.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2078.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2078.jpg)

Also cut the old end plates off the front beam and added 10 degrees of KPI.  Got one end plate machined and tacked into place.  The other is layed out and just needs to get drilled.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2074.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2074.jpg)

New end plates currently have 12 degrees of positive or negative castor adjustment.  That is assuming the frame has no rake to it.  I have room to make the slots bigger if I need more.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2075.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2075.jpg)

Also got some more frame stiffining done.  Didnt clean up the welds yet because I have more to do tomorrow.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2076.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2076.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2077.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2077.jpg)





Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 28, 2008, 09:15:34 am
Looking really good... your well on your way..
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on September 28, 2008, 07:51:27 pm
Ty,

I see your from Bear Creek WI.  My brother-in-law and sister-in-law live there.  I am up there quite a bit.  I really dig your monster mowers!!!!  That is some cool stuff!
Who's your inlaws? If in the area,need some help with anything,stop by.

By the way, lookin good so far.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 28, 2008, 08:22:58 pm
Got the front axle put together today.  Need to get the spacers for the king pin yet.  The frame is upside down in the picture obviously.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2088.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2088.jpg)

I need some suggestions on the rear end.  The center line from the front axle comes out 2.5" above the frame.  (if you are looking at the frame upside down as it is pictured.)  The top of the bar in the picture is the centerline from the front axle.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2081.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2081.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2080.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2080.jpg)

I plan on running 13 inch tires on the front and 16 inch tires on the rear.  I am not sure how I should mount the rear axle.  I was thinking of this...

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2090.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2090.jpg)

But I really do not like it.  It looks stupid, and it will also add a lot of weight.  Not to mention I am not so sure it will be sturdy anoug.  Of course I would frame it in on the inside with 3/4" tube but I still dont like it. 

My second thought was to build a small sub-frame on the inside along the frame rails out of 1" square tubing, and mount pillow block bearings to that frame.  I think that will be a lot stronger and will weigh less.  The 1-1/4" pillow blocks through McMaster Carr are not cheap though!!!  Anyone have any suggestions?  Am I going about this all wrong by having the centerlines of the axles in line?



Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 28, 2008, 08:37:11 pm
I personally think you should use independent steering rods for the steering.. 

With the front end using a common bar to tie thenm together you will end up with Ackerman issues..

The key to having good steering is to have the inside wheel turn a sharper radius than the outside..

The way to do this is with a center pivot and the tie rods on top of each other in the middle.. this will allow for the tighter turn on the inside wheel..

With the two tires locked together.. they share the same arc and if you will always have the outside tire scrubbing.. scrubbing reduces speed.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/th_DSCF0117-3.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/DSCF0117-3.jpg)


Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 28, 2008, 09:29:03 pm
I may have to use two tie-rods in the front because of the way the frame lies with the front end, it will make it very difficult to attach the drag link to the spindle.  If the steering systems with the single tie rod in the front do not work well, how come there are so many of them out there?  I am sure a lot of it has to do with personal preference, but is one really better than the other? 
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 28, 2008, 09:38:45 pm
It is used to remove the Ackerman effect in the steering..

It is easy to put a bar across the front.. like I said before.. if they share the same arc.. you will have scrub...a scrub will exaggerate any push you have in the chassis.. also a scrub can not be tuned out with air pressure..

Here is some reading material with visuals to help...

Ackerman (http://www.muller.net/mullermachine/docs/ackerman.html)

Now remember that on a rear steering you need to separate the rod ends at the middle.. on a front steer you need the rod ends to be on top of each other. The drawing in the article was to show the different arcs needed to correct the Ackerman..

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 29, 2008, 03:42:46 pm
Wheelhorse racer, Thanks for the info on ackerman.  I am not sure what I am going to do with my front end yet.

Placed an order with EC today. 
I ordered...

rear hubs
rear sprocket hubs
rear sprocket
tranny quick change hub
tranny sprocket
king pin spacers
tranny plate bushing
split collars
and a MCP brake set-up

Also ordered 8" rear wheels but they were on back order.  Was going to order tires, but what good are tires if I dont have rims????

I decided I am going to go with pillow blocks in the rear end to hold the axle.  So the Metal addition to the rear end you see in the previous pics, will be coming off.  I will build a support for the pillow blocks to set on out of 1" square tubing, and weld it into the frame and reinforcement structure.  I think using pillow blocks will be stronger than flange bearings in my case, and it will also provide me with ride height adjustability by placing spacers between the frame and the pillow blocks.  Yea, it will not be as easy to adjust as the adjustable cassettes, but I am OK with that.

I need a little help getting the right sprocket/pully combinations to start out with. 

I will be runing a 16 Hp opposed, 700 tranny, and 16 inch rear tires.  I planned on starting out with an 8" pully on the engine, 5" on the tranny, 12 tooth sprocket on the tranny, and 48 tooth sprocket on the axle.  Am I even in the ball park for where I should be?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: lowgalaxie on September 29, 2008, 03:50:40 pm
Sounds pretty close on the gearing. I run 6.5 on motor 4 on tranny 17 on output and 48 on axle.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowpower on September 29, 2008, 04:27:11 pm
Doing the math that put you at 7.5:1
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 30, 2008, 12:08:33 am
Fabricated the pillow block mounts for the rear end tonight and welded them into the frame.  I think this will work out well.  I will weld some supports going the width of the frame once I have the axle and the sprocket mounted so I can see the clearance I will need.  I will square up the rear of the frame and box it in with some 1/8" plate.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2091.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2091.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2092.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2092.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2093.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2093.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 30, 2008, 01:24:01 am
Mowpower, how did you come up with that ratio?  I didint get that when I figured it out.  Maybe I did something wrong.  I came up with 6.4:1.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowpower on September 30, 2008, 08:12:18 am
Take the trans pulley and divide it into engine pulley= belt ratio   
Take axle sprocket and divide it into the tran sprocket= axle ratio
I used a trans gear as 3:1 That is what a 700 has in 3rd gear. Both gears are 25 and your trans input is 3:1 the..   So it looks like this Belt ratio X axle ratio X trans gear ratio 3   Here is mine 6in on engine 3.5in on trans. Equals .583   12T on trans 48T on axle equals 4.00:1    So take .583 X 4.00 X 3.00 equals 6.99:1 as final drive ratio. Now this is what I do. I carrier a 13T sprocket also. Just by changing the trans sprocket to 13 from 12 my final gear changes to 6.45:1 With EC quick change setup and there idler adjustment sprocket I don't have to replace the chain when I change between the 2 I can change the front sprocket in 15 mins.
I just recheck your numbers and I still come up with 7.5:1 your belt ratio should be .625 your axle ratio is tha same as mine 4:1. The only thing it can be is you used a different trans ratio then I did. I would say that most of them use 3:1 as the trans ratio. Because you are over driving or under driving the trans mission gears. Yes you are overdriving the transmission input
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 30, 2008, 08:18:53 am
That is the same set up I run.. the only issue you will find is that the pillow bearing is able to move in the housing... so if you axle flexes, the bearing will just move with the axle.. I have had my axle flex in the middle and you could see it rub on the cross tube I built in.. when the axle flexes enough that it will become a permanent bend. Every bent axle I had this year, bent in the middle between the axles.

I would suggest one more pillow bearing in the middle to eliminate the flex in the middle of the axle. It's more weight, but will minimize the chance of bending an axle in the middle, or a stronger tube slipped over the axle to help minimize the flex.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 30, 2008, 09:55:13 am
Mowpower,

Yea I used a different ratio for the tranny.  Thanks for correcting me.  I picked up the wuick change hub from EC.  I was thinking of doing exactly what you were talking about by being able to change the tranny sprockets without changing the chain.

Thanks again...
Wheelhorseracer,

Are you runing a 1.25 axle?  I was thinking about putting another pillow block in the center, but the frame is not that wide, so I was unsure about the axle flex.  It can be added easy enough.

Will I have a problem getting through tech if I use 1/8" plate to box in the rear of the frame as opposed to the origional piece?  The origional piece will interfere with the bearing support tubes I welded in, plus it is a heavy stamped piece of 1/4" steel.  I think the frame would be stronger the way I want to do it.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on September 30, 2008, 11:25:27 am
I'm running a 1" axle.. I should have used a 1 1/4 chrome moly axle and I bet i wouldn't of had one problem...

It gets expensive when you bend axles on bumpy tracks...

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowpower on September 30, 2008, 11:33:54 am
That my friend is a close call. That would kinda of be up to the tech guys. I do tech for ARMA and our local region. Althrough ARMA did kinda of bend the rules abit about replacement sheet metal. I would go to ARMA web www.golawnmowerracing.com and post that on the build section. Maybe you could get Larry or George to answer that. I was at the national meet in Salisbury this past weekend. Larry and I had a long talk about some of the rules during the rain. Now if I were to tech it as long as it looks like it belongs there I wouldn't see a problem with it. That is just me. Not to bring there stuff to this fourm. Last week I ask about putting a Midget seat on my mower. It was a low profile alum seat with rib supports. You will find it in the build section. It was kinda of shot down about they wanted it to look like a mower. I'm going to compair apples and oranges here. I have a MTD and there is noting under the frame for support. Well were the mower deck had a pivot point in the frame I ran a 1" square tube across and bolted it to the frame. It really stiffen the frame in front of the rear wheels. There was nothing from the rear axle to the front frame cross member. I was question about it at the race. We are not allowed to tech our own mowers. I could use it, But it did bring up a question of what it was.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 30, 2008, 12:22:11 pm
If worst comes to worst, I can just weld the origional rear panel to the 1" square tube and be done with it.  I cannot bolt it back in because the bolt holes are covered up with the square tubing.  I think it would be a lot stronger the way I want to do it. 
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 30, 2008, 01:51:00 pm
I will weld the origional rear plate in, then there will be no question.  I just realized that I need to move the pillow blocks back to maintain the origional centerline of the rear axle.  I dont know why I didnt realize this until now!!!!!!!  I have some ideas as to how I am going to do this and still be able to bolt the pillow blocks in place.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on September 30, 2008, 03:23:18 pm
Dude, your building a Gilson !!!

I am the proud owner of the Gilson Don Gienger on the G-Team website.

It looks like you have the same frame there but I am a bit confused.

If you are building a prepared type chassis or Mod-X you are going to want to lower that thing as in, move the axle up into the frame not add to the bottom. What you are doing is putting it back more to stock ride height.
 I run 16 inch tires and it sits just right with the axle up into the frame...
Take a look... http://www.g-team.us/DashSupport/slides/Mar30_28.html

As for the original rear panel simply squeeze in/out the side tabs a bit, but it up to the "tunnel" and weld it in place, grind down the welds so they look nice and no one will ever question it at tech.

That will give you an extra inch or so of much needed space, out the back, for your sprockets, notice I didn't have to cut a sprocket relief slot like the guys building MTD's do !

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 30, 2008, 03:39:11 pm
Lee,

From the pictures I have seen of your frame, it is a little different.  I  didn't see that your frame had the dropped front end for the engine.  Your frame is straight from the rear axle to the centerline of the front axle.  Am I just missing it in the pics of your mowchine?    I needed to build up the rear a little bit to match the centerline of the front axle to the centerline of the rear axle.  The tunel on this frame is only about 6 inches deep.  Maybe I am going about this all wrong?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on September 30, 2008, 03:54:46 pm
Nope, I am way wrong, what you are doing is right,
 Some of the pieces are shaped the same so at first glance I thought we had the same mower but, after looking more closely at the pictures you have a different frame all together. It looks like your frame is different, enough so that I am not going to be of much help.

My motor plate does step down as your does just hard to see, but the rear portion is different, mine comes down further than yours does...

I sometimes have problems visualizing where the ride hight is going to be so the easiest way to see where things belong is to mount up the tires, put them on the axle and set the frame on top. that way you can see exactly where things are.

Where are you located ? Maybe I can run it over and show ya how mine is done ?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: fordman21 on September 30, 2008, 04:16:18 pm
I've built a few machines using the Gilson frame, they are pretty easy to use, not as heavy as they look and the 48" wheel base is nice too.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/th_IMG_0121.jpg) (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/IMG_0121.jpg)
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/th_IMG_0122.jpg) (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/IMG_0122.jpg)
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/th_IMG_0117.jpg) (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/IMG_0117.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 30, 2008, 04:22:25 pm
Lee, I am glad I am not doing this wrong!!!!!!  I spent a lot of time looking at your machine before I decided to tear into mine.  Aside from the few ford racers that were built by Gilson, I think you and I have the only two Gilsons that I have seen.  I could be way wrong though, maybe there are more out there and I just havent seen them yet.

I know what you mean about the ride height.  I am not doing anything else until I get the tires rims and axle mounted up.  That stuff should be coming the end of this week.  I have been going off of theoretical tire heights, and before I go any further I want to make sure I am right.

I am located in Hartford WI.

If my rear end sits high, is it goign to hurt my handling a great deal to have an inch or two of rake to the frame?  Should I really be shooting for a little rake?

Fordman, now that frame looks really familiar!!!  How did you mount your rear end?  What ride height do you have for your frame?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 02, 2008, 12:16:48 am
Tonight I laid the frame out on blocks to the proper heights.  I realized that the frame had too much rake to it.  I was about an inch and a half too high on the rear axle.  I also needed to extend the axle mounts rearward to maintain the original wheelbase.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2094.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2094.jpg)

I then modified my pillow block mounts.  The plates still need to get welded to the square tubing.  I am waiting to square up the width of the tunnel in the rear before I weld these on to ensure they are flat with the frame.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2096.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2096.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2097.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2097.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2098.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2098.jpg)

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 02, 2008, 07:33:46 am
Good stuff.. trust me.. this will be worth it . I changed so much during the year and I wish I would have taken the time to do it like you did and plan it out ahead of time.

Good work.. it looks like you have lots of room to work too which makes it really nice too...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: fordman21 on October 02, 2008, 08:13:57 am
The rear axle runs through the tunnel, we are allowed to be a little lower than you guys. There is about 2" ground clearance under the front. The chassis sits level. Here is a better shot of how the rear axle is mounted.
(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/th_IMG_0076.jpg) (http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r190/fordman21_photos/IMG_0076.jpg)
Note: the huge rear bumper was built to customers orders.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on October 02, 2008, 10:04:26 am
"I also needed to extend the axle mounts rearward to maintain the original wheelbase."

But is the axle still sit in the same place (front to back) the original axle was ? I see a black line drawn there is that where the original axke was ?

I am not sure how tight the ARMA officials will govern this but I know in the USLMRA you have to locate the axle in the same place the stock one was you cannot move it forward or back in the chassis.

I need to pull my Gilson out of the trailer before it goes to storage tonight anyway. I will take some pictures of how it's setup and post them here tomorrow....

Note: the huge rear bumper was built to customers orders.

Wow that's quite the cowcatcher he had you put on there Ryan. Usually you see those on th efront of trains not the rear of a racing mower lol ....
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 02, 2008, 12:34:22 pm
Lee, the line drawn on the frame is the centerline of where the original axle was.  I will maintain the "unaltered" wheelbase.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on October 02, 2008, 04:28:25 pm
Lee, the line drawn on the frame is the centerline of where the original axle was.  I will maintain the "unaltered" wheelbase.

Gotcha, hang tight, let me get home, after dinner I will take a look at mine I will put a tape measure to it and we can see what's what. I can see that your fenders and motor plate are different than mine so we may be talking about 2 different animals here.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 05, 2008, 10:50:12 pm
Didnt get much time in the garage this weekend, but I still managed to get a few things done.  The axle came in the mail Friday, and I got my tires mounted to the rims with tubes.  That was a royal pain!!  I cant wait to do the front tires!!!!!!!!!!!!

I got my tranny plate built today.  I also have the tubing cut for the tranny plate mount.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2103.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2103.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2104.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2104.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2105.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2105.jpg)

I would like to cut an acess hole in the top of the tunnel between the fender assembly and the dash.  This will allow me to get to the tranny easily for service.  Is this legal???  If it is not I will have to bolt the tranny plate to the frame because that will be to only way to take it out for service.  Obviously I would cover the hole in the tunnel with diamond plate or something like that.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 06, 2008, 08:02:00 am
I have seen this done. I would think that if it is discreet and without any protrusions it would be ok...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 08, 2008, 01:29:01 am
Havent had a chance to work on the mower until tonight.  Tonight I got the tranny plate welded in, and the pillow blocks bolted to the frame.  I went to install the axle and sprocket when I finally realized that I need 1/4" by 1/8" keys as opposed to 1/4" by 1/4".  Wish I would have realized this sooner so I could have ordered the key stock with everything else I have ordered!!!

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2106.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2106.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2107.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2107.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2108.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2108.jpg)

Also started tearing into the tranny.  MAN that bentonite grease is a mess.  I ran out of cleaner so I will have to clean the housing halfs later, but I have all of the gears and shafts cleaned up.  Everything looks good from what I saw.  I ordered the oil seal for the input shaft today, and will pick that up tomorrow night.  Is anyone running Amsoil 75-90 in their tranny???  That is what I planned on using unless I hear different.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2111.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2111.jpg)

Since I am planning on running a 16 HP Opposed, I ordered Don's video today to find out a little more about them before I call him to talk about a cam and flywheel.

Thats all for now.  It will be a couple days before I get back out to the shop to work on the mower!  Maybe I can catch up on some sleep!!!


Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 08, 2008, 07:46:21 am
That's a nice sprocket... is it a two piece?

It's hard to believe all those gears fit in one little case eh?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 08, 2008, 08:36:01 am
Yea, it is a two piece from EC.

It is amazing that all the gears fit into the housing.  I will be glad when I get the tranny back together.  It took over two hours to clean the grease off the parts, and that doesnt include the housing halves!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowinmachine on October 08, 2008, 11:00:49 am
When you do the front tires, it might be worth it to take it to a tire shop since those smaller tires can be a big pain. I spent 2 hours trying to get mine on before I gave up. Tire shop had it done in 2 minutes.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ironmike on October 08, 2008, 01:40:47 pm
Yea, it is a two piece from EC.

It is amazing that all the gears fit into the housing.  I will be glad when I get the tranny back together.  It took over two hours to clean the grease off the parts, and that doesnt include the housing halves!

Soon you will be able to take it out and be able to change the shift keys in about 15 minutes at the track. LOL.

IronMike
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 08, 2008, 01:44:28 pm
I can fully race prep a tranny (outside already clean) in about 20 to 30 minutes max. It will get easier in time.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 08, 2008, 02:48:57 pm
What are you guys using to cut the grease?  I was using this green parts cleaner from a farm implement store.  That worked ok, but brake cleaner worked a lot better.


The other question I had was about tubes in the front tires.  Do I need them or should I run them tubeless?  From what I remember reading on here, there are a lot of people that do both.  The tires are 13" turf masters going on douglas 6x725 rims.
Thanks George and Ironmike,  I am sure it will get easier as I go.  Just like everything else with this machine I have been building.  You can read and read, but until you actually do it, you really have no clue what goes into it.  I have had to re-do so many things on this chassis to get them right, that it isnt even funny.  What I have learned from all the mistakes has made it all worth it though!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 08, 2008, 03:11:40 pm
And when your done you will know your machine inside out, upside down, and round and round.


Yes the more you mess with the 700's the easier they get. especially when your running oil instead of grease.

Patience is a virtue when it comes to cleaning the old grease out.  Brake clean works good but very costly. Go buy you a cheap aluminum turkey pan and a bottle of Purple Power.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ironmike on October 08, 2008, 03:22:03 pm
I use a parts cleaner that has a mixture of stuff in it to clean them out.

IronMike
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 08, 2008, 03:25:13 pm
I re-read Tom Fox's post on preping the 700's.  There was talk about washers or shims placed on the shafts before the bushings.  As you can see in the pictures I posted of my tranny parts, I do not have those washers.  All I have is the washers that go between the gears.  Do I need then, and if so where can I get them?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 08, 2008, 07:32:15 pm
I have seen people inflate them and if they don't seat the bead,  just fill them and just leave them in the sun and they will seat themselves when they get warm inside...

HUH?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 08, 2008, 11:22:17 pm
I got the front tires beaded tonight.  It was a piece of cake.  I thought it was way easier than the rear tires.  I didnt even need to use tire irons.  Just some soapy water and a ratchet strap and 10 minutes later they were mounted on the front spindles!!!!!  Thanks for all the advice from everyone!

Did anyone read what I was asking in my previous post about the washers missing in my tranny????  I need a little advice on that!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 09, 2008, 10:41:23 pm
Got the wheels and the floor boards on tonight and got the mower sitting on the ground.  I finally have a semi complete rolling chassis.  Next step is to start working on the dash sopports and rear fender mounts. 

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2112.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2112.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2113.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2113.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2114.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2114.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2115.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2115.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: twigs-scrapiron on October 09, 2008, 10:47:14 pm
Looks Great!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 09, 2008, 10:51:46 pm
Thanks man!!!!!  Really appreciate it!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 10, 2008, 07:38:47 am
Now your seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.. The rest is pretty easy... but make sure you lay it out so you are comfortable. Nothing worse than running 15 laps all cramped up...like I do on my current chassis..



Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: cubcadet04 on October 10, 2008, 07:43:00 am
Now your seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.. The rest is pretty easy... but make sure you lay it out so you are comfortable. Nothing worse than running 15 laps all cramped up...like I do on my current chassis..



and your not that tall of a guy!!          wanna try squzing into mine......as George would say... " it looks like a gorrilla riding a galf ball!"     but i dont fint it bad at all  its rather comfy  8)   some how haha
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 10, 2008, 08:28:56 pm
Got my tranny put back together tonight.  It even shifts and everything!!!!!!!!!!

I found the thrust washers I was missing.  They were stuck to the flange on the bushings.

Thanks George ans Tom for the posts.  They helped a lot. 

Also picked up a spare tranny for $10 and the guy says he has 6 more.  I think I may go back and get a couple more for spares.  Of course they need to get prepped but I think the price is right!!

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2116.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2116.jpg)


Thats it till monday.  Going to go party like a rock star for a few nights and my son it getting baptised on Sunday!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 12:16:20 am
OK, I need some opinions here from people with some racing expericnce.  I got Don's Opposed video today and realized that the opposed engines I have are not cast iron sleeves, so I should not be racing them.  Having said that I am pretty much pusing the opposed idea to the side, at least for now.

What I would like to know is what would be a good motor to start with.  As you can see from my build thread I have a longer wheel-base mower and with me on it will be a little on the heavy side.  I have put a bunch of money into the chassis to so it will handle well, so I do not have a whole lot of money left to put into a motor for my first season.  I plan on running a stock, or close to stock engine.  Anyone have any suggestions??

I have a 21 HP Intek that is almost brand new I could use, but that pushes me into the super sportsman class with ARMA and I dont know it that is really a good place to start.  I also have an 11 HP cast sleeve engine I could use but I am afraid it will be a little on the small side without doing some modifications to it.

I am just looking for some good suggestions from everyone!

Here is the model of the intek I have.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_1580.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_1580.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: benfield_boy on October 15, 2008, 02:57:31 am
 Starting out I would use the 11hp. You could do some simple thing to it like Port it out and other small thing to help with flow.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 10:11:30 am
I also found a 18 HP I/C opposed and a 12.5 HP I/C.  Both are very reasonably priced from a local guy.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 15, 2008, 10:53:25 am
The opposed can be made to work quite well I hear..
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 11:52:37 am
I am thinking that the opposed may be the way to go.  I really want to race a twin, but I would like to stay away from the OHV twins for now.  I think starting out in a Super-Sportsman class would put me at a disadvantage because I do not have my chassis shaken down yet, and no driving experience.

Still open to other suggestions though!!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on October 15, 2008, 12:40:10 pm
With the BSMRA, we have been running everything OHV together, twins and singles. Being a twin, but anl-head, not sure where Bert would put you class wise... Shoot him an email, berthyd@aol.com     let him know whats going on, and then decide from there..  Just tell him Ed sent ya!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 01:55:53 pm
I have talked to Bert already.  He is personally against the opposed engines completely.  Sounds like until there are enough people they are grouping racers based on qualifying times.  If I was running an opposed and we were grouped by ARMA class I would obviously run in the mod-x class.

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 15, 2008, 02:04:11 pm
Thats correct and redline(ED) is mod-x SO you would run where ever he runs.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 03:06:30 pm
Ed,

Bert told me a while back that you have a new motor to look out for!!!  So, I guess If I decide to used this opposed you may be taking me to school for a while!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on October 15, 2008, 04:40:16 pm
We have a race this Sat, the18th in Rosholt. About 15mi. northeast of Stevens Point, you should come on out and check it out. Practice is at 10:30, qualifying at high noon. There are directions on the BSMRA site I believe.  No new motor, just added slightly larger teeth to the bad boy George built me. 

New exhaust and high perf stickers go a long way    :badgrin:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 05:07:03 pm
Would love to go to the race, but I have a wedding to go to.  If I dont go to that the wife will really find ways to shorten the ammount of time I spend out in the shop!!!

I knew I was missing something.  I need some high perf stickers to make me go faster too!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 15, 2008, 06:51:33 pm
I knew I was missing something.  I need some high perf stickers to make me go faster too!

Don't forget the "CHROME" you know that always makes em faster.    LOL
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 07:26:47 pm
10-4 on the chrome!  I think I can come up with a little something that should shave a second or two off the lap times!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 15, 2008, 07:35:52 pm
That a Chevy thing.. "if it don't go, chrome it"

(http://www.yourcustomcar.com/image-files/wal-silver-chevy-iib.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 15, 2008, 11:27:32 pm
Tonight I managed to get the mount for my clutch welded in, and the mounts made for my rear fender.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2120.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2120.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2121.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2121.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2117.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2117.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2118.jpg) (http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/100_2118.jpg)

Next step is to figure out how to fasten the fender to the mounts, and then it is on to the dash supports.

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 16, 2008, 10:23:04 pm
Nobody has posted in the project builds since I did last night??????  Is anybody reading these threads anymore???

Tonight I figured out how I was going to attach the rear fenders to the mounts and got the fenders mounted. 
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2124.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2124.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2123.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2123.jpg)

I also fabricated the dash supports and got them welded in.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2126.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2126.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2127.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2127.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2128.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2128.jpg)

The dash fits over the supports like a glove!!
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2122.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2122.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2125.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2125.jpg)


Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 16, 2008, 10:36:21 pm
Yes we are reading! Looks like your build is coming along good!

With your rear bearings mounted like that how far off the ground is your frame?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: John692 on October 16, 2008, 11:23:47 pm
Its lookin great  ;)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 16, 2008, 11:56:24 pm
The front frame is about 4.5" and the rear was about 6.5" if I remember correctly.  Because of the way the motor plate drops in the front this is just how the heights worked out.  I was focused more on keeping the front at 4" and trying to level the frame off of that.  I still have some room on the king pins to make some adjustment to raise it up if I have to, and I think I can drop the front another inch.   There is a little bit of rake to the frame, but it is not much.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 17, 2008, 07:32:41 pm
Didnt work on the mower a whole lot today, but I did get a chance to finish welding the dash supports in (ran out of wire last night).  I also got the dash bolted to the frame and installed the steering shaft bearings.  Dropped the 3/4" steering shaft in place to see how it lines up under the chasis.  Plenty of room to work with!  Now I need to figure out how to do the drag link. 

I am not sure if I should go with a direct steer set-up like George uses, or go with the centered piviot set-up.  Any opinions???

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2129.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2129.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2130.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2130.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2131.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2131.jpg)


Just wanted to say thanks to all you guys for the comments.  I really appreciate the positive comments and suggestions!!!!!!!

Planning on ordering the brake setup on Monday.  Where can I get the best deal on a complete MCP setp?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on October 17, 2008, 08:51:44 pm
All of the mowers we have use a direct steer setup like George uses. Works good, is simple.                E.C. carries an mcp brake kit, prety much as cheap as you will find it as well.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on October 17, 2008, 08:57:52 pm
All of the mowers we have use a direct steer setup like George uses. Works good, is simple.                E.C. carries an mcp brake kit, prety much as cheap as you will find it as well.
Ed, you havin a hard time punching keys ? :lol:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 17, 2008, 09:00:41 pm
man.. i want that shop!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 17, 2008, 09:20:28 pm
Just for fun.......  I said I have been tinkering with mowers for a while......  Here are a few pics of the toys I used to play with about 5 years ago.....I know totally unsafe but to be honest with you we were not going that fast at all.  It was just all about a good time, and we had a good time with them!  Knowing what I know now I wouldnt get on them without upgrading the steering and brakes.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_0279.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_0279.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_0281.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_0281.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_0285.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_0285.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_0556.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_0556.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_0557.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_0557.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_1576.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_1576.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_1577.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_1577.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_1578.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_1578.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_1586.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_1586.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_1621.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_1621.jpg)

Thanks for the reply Ed...Looking forward to meeting you!

Wheelhorseracer, thanks for the compliments on my "Man Cave!"  The wife just dosent understand, but thats OK!  I would live out here if I could!  Lots of late nights out here, after our 6 month old goes to sleep.  He loves it out here so I am pumped for him to get a little older!  I cant wait to start turning wrenches with him!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 18, 2008, 04:30:09 am
That intek would make a nice racer engine..

What ever happened to your "toy's"?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 18, 2008, 04:50:10 am
Still have them.... They are up at the cabin.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on October 19, 2008, 02:29:57 pm
Should be good times next year! Always great to add more people into the races. Running on empty, if you ever get over to the Stevens Point area, let me know. Your welcome to stop over and check out the mowers here.

Ty, typing isn't too bad, I just have too do it all with my right hand! I will see what the surgeon has to say next Thursday for my follow up.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 19, 2008, 11:57:19 pm
Got the direct steering components welded up today.  Still need to make the rod, but here is what I have.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2132.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2132.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2133.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2133.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2136.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2136.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2137.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2137.jpg)

Next up is the cluth and brake pedals!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 20, 2008, 07:46:02 am
Have you checked your ground clearance with the tires on?... that bottom rod looks like it might be really close to the ground...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on October 20, 2008, 09:51:07 am
You may need to redo the arms for the tie rods. With the 10* kingpin inclination, they need to be so that the heim joints are parallel to the ground with the wheels straight ahead, with it the way it is, the heims are already starting to bind, and won't give you full turn radius. The drag link should be fine. It looks to be pretty close to the alxe, should not be to low. I think mine is a bit lower than that and never had a problem.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 20, 2008, 10:11:26 am
Wheelhorseracer, I think it is just the camera angle, but there is plenty of ground clearance.

Redline,  I understand what you are saying, and I was thinking about that as well.  However I do have spacers between the bolt and the heim, and between the heim and the arm which keep the heims from binding.  Those heims should take up to a 30* angle.  I have full turn radius right now, in fact I think there is actually too much turn radius and was wondering about fabricating steering stops.  Currently the arms hit on the beam endplate acting as stops.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on October 20, 2008, 10:53:01 am
Either steering stops, or the tires will rub the grille like they do on mine! Just looks like they would bind in the pic.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 20, 2008, 11:24:21 am
I know it does!  I was worried about it, but there is no binding.  One less thing to do over!!!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on October 20, 2008, 08:18:39 pm
You may need to redo the arms for the tie rods. With the 10* kingpin inclination, they need to be so that the heim joints are parallel to the ground with the wheels straight ahead, with it the way it is, the heims are already starting to bind, and won't give you full turn radius. The drag link should be fine. It looks to be pretty close to the alxe, should not be to low. I think mine is a bit lower than that and never had a problem.
You could put a small twist in the arms to make parallel.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 23, 2008, 12:31:35 am
Ty, Thanks for the suggestion....  I thought about putting some heat on them and adding a twist, and I will if I have binding issues.  So far I do not!

Tonight I finished the steering linkage, and got that all adjusted. 

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2143.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2143.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2144.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2144.jpg)

The steering is set up with about a 1/4 turn lock to lock.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2145.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2145.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2146.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2146.jpg)

Decided to add a third sperical bearing to support the steering shaft better.  Without it there was some deflection in the shaft when it was up againt the locks.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2148.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2148.jpg)


I also got the drive chain installed, as well as the idler sprocket.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2147.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2147.jpg)

Also picked up my motor tonight.  I will be building this once the snow starts flying!!!!!

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2151.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2151.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2150.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2150.jpg)

I also got my throttle lever today which I ordered through a local bike shop.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2152.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2152.jpg)

Picked up the steel yesterday to mount the pedals, but my 3/4" bit I need to bore out for the bushings stopped cutting, so I am on hold until I can get to the store to get another one.  Probably will not get there until Friday.






Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 23, 2008, 07:41:09 am
The one thing I noticed was that the way you have the bolts in the pillow bearings on the rear axle. If the nuts come loose, the bolts will fall out and the axle would come out..

If the bolts came from the top down, even if the bolt came loose, at least there would be something to retain the bearing for a little while and would give you a chance to stop.

Bolts should face down... not up...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old Goat on October 23, 2008, 08:15:07 am
Looks to me like your steering is gonna work backwards. When you turn the wheel left it's gonna turn right! The arm on the bottom of the steering column needs pointed towards the opposite side.
That's a real nice shop you got there. I thought maybe it was your bedroom with curtains in the windows and surround sound above your work bench!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 23, 2008, 08:21:45 am
YEs I agree the steering arm should be the opposite side of the column. It will steer backwards as its sits in the picture
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 23, 2008, 08:45:24 am
Thanks guys, you are right!  I dont know how that one got past me.  I was even thinking about that as I put it together, and yet I still got it backwards.  I will flip it around tonight and probably have to make a longer rod for it as well.   Not the first thing I have had to do over!!!!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: lowgalaxie on October 23, 2008, 08:58:13 am
Nice build and good attitude way to build :chris:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 23, 2008, 10:37:48 pm
Didnt get any pictures tonight, but I did get the arm on the steering shaft turned around the correct way!!!  I also went ahead and followed everyones suggestions and put a slight bend in the arms on the spindles to match the 10* KPI.  Now the arms swing parallel with the ground.  I will post pictures tomorrow night!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 24, 2008, 07:52:51 am
Keep them pictures coming... :D
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowinmachine on October 24, 2008, 11:10:03 am
Nice looking build so far. I especially like the idler sprocket setup you have. Where did you get the piece that the sprocket is mounted to? Did you mill it or buy it that way?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 24, 2008, 12:46:29 pm
Mowinmachine, Thanks!  The idler sprocket and bar came from EC.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 24, 2008, 07:43:47 pm
Managed to get a little time out in the shop this afternoon.  Here re the pictures of the steering with the modifications.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2153.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2153.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2154.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2154.jpg)

I got my cluth mounted today.  Do these plastic pulleys hold up, or should I replace them with steel ones?  This is all I had to mock everything up with.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2155.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2155.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2156.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2156.jpg)

As you can see the linkage for my clutch runs between the floor boards and the frame.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2158.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2158.jpg)

This is the arm that will attach to the clutch pedal and connect to the linkage.  I still have to weld the 1/2" round bar in place and thread it.

The plan for tomorrow is to get the clutch pedal and linkage finished as well as the brake pedal assembly.  I would also like to get the hood mounts welded in.  Hopefully I can get far enough to get the motor mounted and running so I can start working on the exhaust.  Still need to get brakes for this machine.  I have seen quite a variance in price on them.  I have seen them on ebay for $125 and EC gets $180 for the complete setup.  Dont know where I am going to get them from yet.  I am going to need something soon if I am going to test this beast out!!!!




Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on October 25, 2008, 11:11:50 pm
The plastic idler pulleys will work fine.I have used them on my super sportsman and now to be using the same clutch set up on my pro-x build. If they are used ones,I would repack the bearings to be on the safe side.Other than that, your build is coming along great. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 28, 2008, 12:25:28 am
Thanks Ty.......The pulleys are brand new with sealed bearings so I should be ok for a while.

I never did make it out to the shop to work on the Gilson Saturday like I had planned, but I did get quite a bit done tonight.

I started out by finishing up the clutch and the linkage for it.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2169.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2169.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2170.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2170.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2171.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2171.jpg)

I also got the brake pedal bent up and the mount for it welded in.  I will eventually have zerk fittings in both the clutch and brake pedal bearing tubes.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2172.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2172.jpg)

Here is a view of the complete underside.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2173.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2173.jpg)

Here is a view of the complete tunnel.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2174.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2174.jpg)
 
Here are a few views of the rolling chassis sitting on all for tires.  Finally looks like I have something that resembles a racer!!!

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2175.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2175.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2176.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2176.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2177.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2177.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2178.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2178.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2179.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2179.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2180.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2180.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2181.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2181.jpg)

Here is a couple shots of the steering hub I made from a brake disk off the peerless.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2182.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2182.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2183.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2183.jpg)

And finally here are a few views with the steering wheel installed.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2184.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2184.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2185.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2185.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2186.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2186.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2187.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2187.jpg)

I started to get a little excited about the build and got a little picture happy tonight.  Hope nobody minds.  Next step is to get the hood mount fabricated for the front, and then drop the motor in and start fabricating the exhaust.  I need to get the deck halves welded on one of these nights too.....





Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 28, 2008, 07:20:02 am
I don't mind a few extra pictures... it gives others starting their build something to learn from..

Are you going to stack washers as spacer on your spindle so you have adjustability on the cross wedge.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 28, 2008, 09:03:38 pm
I am not sure if I am going to use washers, or double up the rod stops that I have on the spindles right now.  I have to do a little more research into hoe the cross wedge works, and see what kind of adjustability I am going to need.  I have 6" spindles, and if I could make the spindles over I would not make them that long so I wont need too many spacers.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 28, 2008, 09:34:50 pm
Here's some reading for you then on cross wedge (http://www.extrememowers.com/folder1/fourm/index.php?topic=963.0)



Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 28, 2008, 10:21:43 pm
Thanks Wheelhorseracer, that makes a lot more sense.  When you were talking about spindles before, I thought you were talking about the axle spindles on the front there the hub is mounted.  I was trying to figure out how that would have anything to do with the cross wedge.  I have plenty of adjustment in 1/4" increments to adjust the height of the front spindles.  I believe I have about and inch and a half to work with.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 28, 2008, 10:28:28 pm
Don't forget that the air in the left front is a good adjuster of wedge too...

See you have a ton of stuff to test with in the spring..

If you can pick up 4 cheap bathroom scales you can play with the tire loading by playing with wedge and air Pressure in the left front..

A real good book to learn about set up (although more for stock cars, but a TON carries over) is:

(http://www.motobooks.co.nz/CMS/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/c74f06032d59f29116003636c96b59a4.jpg)

You can pick it up online.. it's the standard for learning about chassis set-up..and understanding how tires and tire loading effects handling..
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 29, 2008, 09:25:30 am
I have noticed that when tractor is sitting on the shop floor and I am puching it with my feet, it turns terribly.  I think there needs to be some major adjustments in the front end.  Where is a good baseline to start with as far as wedge percentages, or castor, spindle height, toe, and tire pressures?  I know every chassis is different and I am not looking for someone to fine tune my chassis for me, but I would like a good place to start so I am not just taking shots in the dark.  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 29, 2008, 10:06:40 am
A good starting point would be around 10 degrees positive caster, maybe 2 degrees negative camber on the right front wheel, 2 degrees positive camber on the left front wheel, if you have kingpin inclination you might would start with 0 degrees camber on both sides.

Toe should be close to nuetral and maybe up to 1/4 inch toe out.

If you put it on scales the left front should be 20 to 30 lbs heavier than the rest. Start with air pressure the same in all four wheels. adjust your chassis or spindles accordingly.

This should be a decent place to start but doesn't mean thats where it has to be , chassis design,and driver preference has a lot do to with setup. Hope this helps.

also you could read this thread on tire pressure it has a lot of really good info in it http://www.heymow.com/index.php?topic=6764.0
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 29, 2008, 11:40:49 am
With a considerable amount of caster and KPI you will notice the steering is very stiff at rest, because when you turn the wheel to the left you are jacking the inside tire... which is hard to do without the tractor being at rest.

The problem I see with caster stager on the Mowers is that when you turn back to the right when you are skidding, you would not have any jacking forces put to the outside tire and you would end up with both tires on the ground when steering out of a skid. This would create a considerable amount of scrub which would bog the engine.

So I would run the same caster and KIP on both sides so that you have wedge either way you turn the steering wheel.

Caster split works great on sprung dirt cars where you would run a considerable amount of positive caster on the right side and negative on the left side so that the steering would natural want to go to the left creating an easier steering feel.

But on a mower with a locked live axle you need to lift one of the tires in the rear to turn whether your turning input is left or right, so I don't see caster splitting (stagger) useful.

Remember your engine has to power through the scrub, that could easier used for forward bite in the corner. That's why I feel Ackerman, toe, minimizing the scrub angle and proper wedge is quite important to a good performing tractor, mostly if you are down on Horsepower compared to the field.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old Goat on October 29, 2008, 05:54:00 pm
I think Nor66 meant 10 degrees positive caster, meaning that the kingpin leans back at the top.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 29, 2008, 09:00:20 pm
With a considerable amount of caster and KPI you will notice the steering is very stiff at rest, because when you turn the wheel to the left you are jacking the inside tire... which is hard to do without the tractor being at rest.

The problem I see with caster stager on the Mowers is that when you turn back to the right when you are skidding, you would not have any jacking forces put to the outside tire and you would end up with both tires on the ground when steering out of a skid. This would create a considerable amount of scrub which would bog the engine.

So I would run the same caster and KIP on both sides so that you have wedge either way you turn the steering wheel.

Caster split works great on sprung dirt cars where you would run a considerable amount of positive caster on the right side and negative on the left side so that the steering would natural want to go to the left creating an easier steering feel.

But on a mower with a locked live axle you need to lift one of the tires in the rear to turn whether your turning input is left or right, so I don't see caster splitting (stagger) useful.

Remember your engine has to power through the scrub, that could easier used for forward bite in the corner. That's why I feel Ackerman, toe, minimizing the scrub angle and proper wedge is quite important to a good performing tractor, mostly if you are down on Horsepower compared to the field.

A good starting point would be around 10 degrees positive caster, maybe 2 degrees negative camber on the right front wheel, 2 degrees positive camber on the left front wheel, if you have kingpin inclination you might would start with 0 degrees camber on both sides.

Toe should be close to nuetral and maybe up to 1/4 inch toe out.

If you put it on scales the left front should be 20 to 30 lbs heavier than the rest. Start with air pressure the same in all four wheels. adjust your chassis or spindles accordingly.

This should be a decent place to start but doesn't mean thats where it has to be , chassis design,and driver preference has a lot do to with setup. Hope this helps.

also you could read this thread on tire pressure it has a lot of really good info in it http://www.heymow.com/index.php?topic=6764.0

If you read my post I say nothing about staggering caster at all, use the same amount of caster on both sides.

If you read my post I am talking about negative "CAMBER" on one side and positive "CAMBER" on the other side.

 

I think Nor66 meant 10 degrees positive caster, meaning that the kingpin leans back at the top.

Is it positive or negative?    I believe you are right!  I can't ever remember which is which! I will change that! Thank you Old Goat.

Caster is the angle to which the steering pivot axis is tilted forward or rearward from vertical, as viewed from the side. If the pivot axis is tilted backward (that is, the top pivot is positioned farther rearward than the bottom pivot), then the caster is positive; if it's tilted forward, then the caster is negative.

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 29, 2008, 10:52:35 pm
Thanks for all the advice guys.  I think what I need to do now is just get a little time running the tractor and seeing what steering geometry works well for the setup I have!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 30, 2008, 07:26:00 am
Why would you run positive camber on one side and negative on the other...

I put my left rear tire on the a flat 2x4 and turn the wheel to the left. The I know how much at the tire will lift when the wheel is turned. Then I set both of my front tires to be flat using the heim joints.  That gives me a flat contact patch on when wedge is applied on turn entry.

If I ran postive camber on the left front I wouldn't have a flat contact patch with the wheel turned. If would be running on the outside lip of the tire.

Why would you have one tire not running a full contact patch when the wheel is turned.. why give up grip? Wedge can be created still utilizing a full contact patch.

Since the tire has two forces acting on it during a turn (the transferred weight or deceleration as wheel as having to turn the tractor), if you reduce the contact patch, you will just create a push.

The left front does do more than create wedge, and driving off the right front to turn is asking a lot from that one tire with limited grip.

Cup guys run positive camber on the left front because the contact will become flat during dive and when the left front spring is compressed during the turn. With the front lowered and weight laterally transferred to the right side, the positive camber creates a flat contact patch. That only work with sprung vehicles. Don't look to the cup cars to what an unsprung front geometry should look like.

and Nor66 - this is not directed at you before you do another HUGE quote.... this is just for information.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 30, 2008, 08:22:44 am
Its all about sidewall flex. Idealy you set up to have as flat a surface on the ground at all times at race speed not static standing.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 30, 2008, 08:47:08 am
Wheelhorse I was just making sure you understood that I wasn't talking about staggering caster.

This should be a decent place to start but doesn't mean thats where it has to be , chassis design,and driver preference has a lot do to with setup. Hope this helps.

As stated I said this should be a decent place to start, but it doesn't mean its set in stone.
I know this set-up works pretty good, because its real close to what I run on my machine. The only thing different is I run 15 degrees caster, which is not adjustable :bash:.
 
My machine handles really well for the set-up the only thing I have a problem with is steering effort with that much caster.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 30, 2008, 09:00:50 am
Good stuff.... this might be a lot of info for some people to digest but if we can give people reading different ways to make it handle, they should be able to come up with something that works.

We should almost have a thread just on what people use for front end geometry people can make a judgment as to what might work best for them. Driving style also comes into play here..

I know when I started I over drove the corner entry and I adjusted thinking it was the tractor.. It was actually my talk with George Herrin in August that really set me straight on my corner entry and middle of the turn and I picked up a considerable amount of speed. It was me not the tractor.

You can set your tractor up different ways, but unless you drive it to it's capabilities and not over drive it, all these number we throw out will mean nothing on the track.

Also tire pressures can do more than mechanical settings.. and once again George gave me a baseline that worked great too..

Your getting lots of good info in here Running on Empty ..
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old Goat on October 30, 2008, 09:16:53 am
Hey, Ron. You must've forgotten to put the "eh" on the end of each sentence. That way them canadian fellars can understand better what you're trying to say, eh? (Sorry, wheelhorse racer, I just had to do it!)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 30, 2008, 09:28:08 am
Thats right Jim. Now thats funny EH!!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 30, 2008, 09:29:14 am
That's ok, eh!.... LOL

Did we say that very much George? Maybe as often as George said y'all....  :D
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 30, 2008, 09:29:31 am
Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the discussion!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on October 30, 2008, 09:30:43 am
Hey, Ron. You must've forgotten to put the "eh" on the end of each sentence. That way them canadian fellars can understand better what you're trying to say, eh? (Sorry, wheelhorse racer, I just had to do it!)

 :lol2:  eh?   :lol:  Thats funny right there!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on October 30, 2008, 09:37:17 am
Maybe as often as George said y'all....  :D

I think the most common thing George said "Y'all a bunch of liars. it's darn cold up here" meanwhile it was 90 two days before he got here...;D
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 30, 2008, 09:42:47 am
Now that I think we have the steering geometry figured out, lets talk about brakes.  Do the MCP billet "big bore" brakes work a lot better than the standard cast MCP brakes, and is the disk that comes with the standard MCP kit big enough or am I better off going bigger?  I am not planning on running front brakes at this time.  That will be an up-grade a little further down the road.  I dont have unlimited funds to work with right now so I need to be practical.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 30, 2008, 10:19:48 am
That's ok, eh!.... LOL

Did we say that very much George? Maybe as often as George said y'all....  :D

Ya never see it in your typing but you use at the end of most sentence's when speaking BUT I love hearing it. Kinda like Dana love hearing me talk. Not sure why but its just a cool thing... I am as excited about you guys come down as I am about the race..... Gotta love it. It doesn't get no better..... And it was COLD up there.... LOL
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowinmachine on October 30, 2008, 11:30:27 am
I bought the plain-jane MCP kit with hub, lines, rotor, caliper, and master cylinder for mine. It was around $145. Most of the guys on our team use them and they'll just about stop a mower going full speed dead. I've been very happy with mine. I think the billet thing you're talking about is the hub.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 30, 2008, 11:38:23 am
OK I will go with the plain MCP set-up then.  The billet parts I was talking about are the master cyl. and the caliper.  I havent seen them at too many places, but I know Comet Kart Sales has them.  I dont know what the standard bore is, but the "big bore" is 3/4".
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Squidd on October 30, 2008, 02:11:20 pm
standard is 5/8"
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old Goat on October 30, 2008, 02:54:57 pm
Is that 5/8" or 3/4" bore in the caliper? That doesn't seem very big! I'm running a motorcycle dual piston caliper on mine, with about an 1-1/4" bore, and it will stall the motor if you come down on the pedal too hard!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 30, 2008, 02:57:36 pm
I am not sure what size bore the caliper is, but the master cyl on the big bore models is 3/4".
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old Goat on October 30, 2008, 03:01:16 pm
The way hydraulics work, a smaller bore in the master cylinder would give you more leverage and make it easier to stop.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 03, 2008, 03:01:36 pm
What are you guys all running for fuel tanks?  I really dont want to spend $100 on a gallon jr. dragster tank.  I have seen some people running a stock MTD tank, does anyone have a part number for one of those?  I would really like to get an opaque tank if possible.  I was looking into purchasing a "g-man" tank for karting, but I heard there are a lot of leaking issues with the caps.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on November 03, 2008, 03:32:00 pm
I use the factory mtd tank. I have one you can have, but it's black, and needs a new fuel cap. What did yours come with originally?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 03, 2008, 03:43:32 pm
Mine came with what I think is a 3 gallon tank that sat under the battery.  I was trying to get the battery as low as possible so I was trying to find a 1 gallon vertical tank I could mount next to the battery.  I suppose I could use the origional tank if worse came to worse.

Thanks for the offer Ed, but I think I am going to try and find an opaque one or stick with the stock one.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: sparks on November 03, 2008, 05:15:50 pm
i have all kinds of mower tanks where are you spark 58 vlmra
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on November 03, 2008, 08:36:45 pm
No problem, if you can't come up with anything, let me know. You won't be needing a 3 gallon one, that's for sure. Your much better off to go smaller. I think the most I ever used in one event (practice, heat and feature) was 1/2 tank, with my factory one. But I am only running 28 cubes too.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowerracer313 on November 03, 2008, 11:18:24 pm
Most snowblowers with a tecumseh have a really nice gas tank that works well.  I have used them on some builds.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 04, 2008, 08:36:57 am
Mowerracer, are you talking about the rectangle tanks with the strap mounts?  I have a few of those I was thinking about, but they are black.  I am trying to find something I can see through if possible.

Spark 58 I am in Wisconsin.

This is what I really want, however I called the company that makes these and they are not resistant to gasoline.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_8663p.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=8663p.jpg)

I have one of these but I do not think 1 quart is enough for a 42CI
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_547-230-025-01.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=547-230-025-01.jpg)

This is what I think I may go with.  There are a lot of kart guys that have issues with the caps leaking, and that is why I was trying to find something else.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_GMFT4.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=GMFT4.jpg)


Started wotking on the exhaust last night.  I will post some pictures when I finally figure out how I am going to do it for sure.  I have a few pipes tacked up but I am not sure if that is the way I am going to keep them. 


Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 04, 2008, 03:55:19 pm
Forgot to ask earlier..... For the exhaust on an opposed engine, do I need to run 1" right out of the ports for the 12" like I have read on some of the other posts arouns here, or can I run 1-1/4"?  Right now I am running 1-1/4" right out of the flange for a few inches, and then stepping up to 1.5" for the rest of the run until I get to the collector.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 07, 2008, 07:22:47 pm
I finally got a chance to work on my machine this afternoon.  Got quite a few pictures of the progress here.  I got my exhaust all welded up and ground smooth for the most part.  I am planning on wrapping the header so you will not see it anyway.  I still need to put a 90* pipe on the end, but I am going to wait until after I have my deck halves welded on to do that.  I never pretended to be a professional welder so dont laugh at the welds!

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2193.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2193.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2194.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2194.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2195.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2195.jpg)

Finally decided on a fuel tank.  Ended up going with a stock Murry tank.  Here are the mounts I made for it.  I am still going to add a piece of flat stock on the back side of the tank so I can strap it in.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2196.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2196.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2197.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2197.jpg)

I also welded up the mounts for the battery.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2198.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2198.jpg)

Here are some shots with the battery installed.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2199.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2199.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2200.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2200.jpg)

Here are a few shots with the fuel tank installed.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2201.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2201.jpg)
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2202.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2202.jpg)

And here are a few shots with the pipes installed.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2203.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2203.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2204.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2204.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2205.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2205.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2206.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2206.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2207.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2207.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2208.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2208.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2211.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2211.jpg)







Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on November 07, 2008, 08:13:16 pm
Nice job so far, like the exhaust, should sound real nice once the motor is all done.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Squidd on November 07, 2008, 08:14:36 pm
Looking good...are you going to have enough ground clearance with the pipes stacked like that...?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on November 07, 2008, 08:58:51 pm
I would not worry about how the exhaust looks, but I do know that header wrap tends to hold moisture in next to the pipe, causing it to rot faster. I had a wrapped set of headers on my plow truck. Lasted 1 year before they rusted through. Same brand of headers, unwrapped, been on there 3 years now and still solid. If anything just give it a coat of that high temp exhaust paint. I did that on my first exhaust I built for my cp/mod-x, and it held up quite well, just stinks real bad when starting it for the first time or so.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 07, 2008, 09:08:15 pm
Thanks Ty, I appreciate it!  I will have to let you know when I am going to be up in your neighborhood next.  I would love to stop by and meet you if thats cool with you!  According to my brother-in-law you live a few miles away from him.

Squidd, I should have enough groung clearance with the pipes.  I really wanted the pipes side by side instead of stacked, but that would have been a lot more bends in the pipe which I tried to avoid to make it a smooth flow.  If I have to make adjustments or re-do the pipes I will.  This is the first exhaust I ever welded up so it was good practice if nothing else!

Redline,  Thanks for the advice on the wrap man!  I will just give them a coat of header paint and leave it at that.  Even though the welds are not the pretiest in the world I am ok with that.  I am just a rookie right?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on November 07, 2008, 09:12:46 pm
When I got my parts mower it had wrap on it.. and under it was TONS of rust..

I would just use some BBQ paint and that will keep it good all year long... I did that with my exhaust on my opposed.. you might have to reapply mid year  but that not really a big deal...

If you go with a flat black paint... no one will ever see the joints...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/th_DSC00015.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/?action=view&current=DSC00015.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 11, 2008, 09:49:03 am
Aside from installing the brakes, throttle lever, paint, and a few other minor details......  Here are a few shots of my "almost complete" mowchine!  Got it fired up last night for the first time......Sounds incredible!  Can't wait to take it out for a spin.  It is going to be a few weeks though cause I just havent had the extra cash in the slush fund for the brakes.  The chassis cost a lot more than I thought it was going to.

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2218.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2218.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2217.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2217.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2216.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2216.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2215.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2215.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2214.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2214.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2213.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2213.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on November 11, 2008, 10:22:35 am
Way to go... now that look like a racer..

It's got a great stance.. don't take it for a run unitl you have all of your safety gear... no need to get hurt before you even get a chance to race it..

I hope you can make a video when your closer to done... we like videos too.. :D
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on November 11, 2008, 10:23:16 pm
Thanks Ty, I appreciate it!  I will have to let you know when I am going to be up in your neighborhood next.  I would love to stop by and meet you if thats cool with you!  According to my brother-in-law you live a few miles away from him.

Not a problem,just give me a call 920-427-5795 to make sure I'm around.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 19, 2008, 09:29:46 am
Finally got the brakes in the mail yesterday!!!  Planning on getting them installed tonight.  If I get far enough I will post pics tonight!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on November 19, 2008, 10:27:42 am
Great looking build !

All of you know I am partial to Gilson's  8)

But I have one concern, as you look at the front of that mower, think of all of the blunt, sharp, protrusions sticking out from under it.

One thing I learned from all of the build clinics that Don and George held for our region was this:

Lay on the ground in front of your mower, imagine it running you over, is there anything you would not want to have there that would cause damage in the unfortunate event that someone was on the track and you couldn't stop fast enough.

I understand that somethings just have to be where they are but, boxing in tubes and rounding sharp corners and edges goes a long ways to reduce the amount of damage that can be caused in the unfortunate event of an accident...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 19, 2008, 11:52:51 am
I totally hear what your saying Lee.  My plan was to smooth all of those sharp edges out when I tear the mower down this winter and prep it for paint.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on November 19, 2008, 07:42:01 pm
What color are you going?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 20, 2008, 08:40:09 am
To be honest, I am not sure yet.  I was thinking possibly blue frame and red tins but that is still up in the air.
Got the brakes installed and bled last night.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2220.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2220.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2219.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2219.jpg)

Also made a filter adaptor and got that installed.  This will work fine for the test run next week, but I will most likely get a velocity stack before the season starts.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2223.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2223.jpg)

(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2221.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2221.jpg)

And because chrome makes you go faster....I added the shift knob.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2222.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2222.jpg)

I also got the pulleys installed and pretty much aligned.  I have a measurement for a belt that I am going to pick up today.  Once I have the correct size belt I will do a final adjustment on the pulley alignment.

Next up will be installing the throttle lever and cable, setting the proper 38" overall width, and installing the belt.  Then it is test time!!


Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 21, 2008, 07:16:27 pm
Went for a short test run today and all I have to say is.....WOW!  I am hooked!  Had some carb issues that I need to work on tomorrow.  I could not rev the engine at all without it killing.  So the test run was just with the engine at idle.  Got up to third gear and it corners like it is on rails.  I have a few minor things to work out yet but nothing major.  I cant wait to get it up to the cabin next week and really open it up where I have some room.

Do you guys remove the choke from the carbs or do you leave them hooked up?  I have a real hard time starting this engine if I do not choke it.
Also.....Right now there is a fixed main jet in the carb.  I am planning on picking up the adjustable main jet that briggs sells.  I have read on here about drilling the fixed jet out when you install an adjustable jet.  Do I need to do this with this 42CI opposed?  I guess what I'm asking is has anyone installed one of these before, and how do you do it?  I am sure the shop manual tells you how to do it, but I forgot mine at the cabin last weekend when I was up there.  A lot of good it does me there huh???   Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on November 21, 2008, 07:42:07 pm
I ran a Kohler Opposed and you want the extra tuning on the carb... You will find the plug on the lower cylinder will run fatter...

My Kohler liked running lean... more than a 1/4 turn fatter than stock and the engine fell on it's face... your might be different.. I was also revving mine to 6000 rpm...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: schevy037 on November 21, 2008, 07:54:01 pm
Did you build your own pipes ? They look great.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 21, 2008, 07:59:02 pm
Wheelhorseracer I will keep that in mind!  Thanks for the info.

schevy037, yes I built those pipes.  Thanks for the compliments!!  I appreciate it!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on November 21, 2008, 08:24:16 pm
Do your rules allow a custom made intake?... I made mine to even out the flow....

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/th_DSC00016.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v302/GoldsackFamily/DSC00016.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 21, 2008, 08:48:42 pm
Wheelhorseracer I dont think the ARMA rules allow me to make a custom intake.  Nice job on yours though!!!

Here are a few pictures for you......

My machine as it sits in the shop after the test run this afternoon.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2224.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2224.jpg)

Fuel filter I installed this afternoon.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2225.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2225.jpg)

Throttle lever installed.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2226.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2226.jpg)

Stoled this idea from the time i spent with my buddy racing modified stocks on the circle tracks.  Used this to set the overall 38" width.
(http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/th_100_2227.jpg) (http://s492.photobucket.com/albums/rr290/timmer406/?action=view&current=100_2227.jpg)

Thats it for tonight.  Now I am going to sit here with my good good friend Southern Comfort and relax and read more on heymow!!!!


Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on November 21, 2008, 09:17:49 pm
Give Don a call regarding that carb stuff he is the man on the oppo stuff right now.
Also I think Yellow is a good color for your mower...(see my avitar)..
and last but not least I think the cub in the background is a bit jealous take it for a spin...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 21, 2008, 10:50:01 pm
Haha, thanks Lee...  Thought about yellow but i didnt want to steal your thunder!!!  The Cub is my grasscutter.  Believe it or not someone was throwing it in the trash.  My brother called me and went to rescue it.  Needed a new coil for the Kohler and, a new bearing on the deck, and some new blades, and I have an awsome cub 1320 mower for next to nothing.  Of course I fitted it up with some diamond plate and a new paint job just so it could fit in at the shop and feel at home.  Cuts grass like no tomorrow!  Maybe it will make a good racer in the future!!!!!!  Who Knows!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on November 22, 2008, 08:38:53 am
That is a cool looking exhaust...
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 24, 2008, 11:33:27 pm
OK I guess the test run at the cabin has been posponed until spring on account of the snow we got last night.  I do not have anything painted on this machine and really do not want to run it around when everything is wet.

I am still having some serious carb issues.  I have two carbs for this opposed.  Both are 3 bolt fuel pumps.  One is an older carb off of a 40CI and it has the adjustable high idle.  The other is a newer one that came with the 42 CI and has a fixed main jet.  I have taken both carbs apart about 3 times now, soaked them, and made sure all the the jets were cleaned.

The carb with the fixed main jet idles great, but as soon as you hit the gas it sputters and kills.  It almost seems like one of the passage ways for the high idle jet are plugged, but I am able to get a wire through all holes.  All holes have also been blown out with the air compressor.

The carb with the adjustable main jet will not idle worth a :censored:, but it has good acceleration.  It will idle for about 20 seconds and then I have to hit the choke lever to keep it running.  It almost seems like it is starving for gas at idle, but in reality i think it is getting plenty of gas.  It also looks like the gas is coming out of the jet in the carb throat in drops rather than atomized.

I thought maybe I was having an issue with the govenor linkage and springs so I disonected the gov from this carb and had to change the mixtures on the carb just to get it to run in any decent form.

Anyone have any ideas?

If I plan on running with no gov. I do need to split the crankcase and pull the internals of the gov out correct?  I have had some difficulties getting the govenor linkage to work correctly with the bike cable I am using for a throttle cable.  Obviously with a bike cable there is a need for a return spring, and the return spring seems to overpower the govenor and it does not work correctly.  Does anybody have any pictures of an opposed engine throttle linkage working coerrectly with a return spring?  I am sure I probably have something really simply messed up and it is totally getting past me.

The only other thing I can think of would be something with the coil, but I have heard that these coils either work or do not work.  Is that true? 

Any help at this point would be greatly appreciated as I am getting extremely frustrated with this engine right now.

At some point I would like to do some mods on this engine like don shows in his video, however I do not know if I am going to have the fund for this for the 09 season.  If I remove the gov, I may just get a billet flywheel and call it good for the season.  Unless I blow it up that is!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on November 24, 2008, 11:50:43 pm
Hey,Chad Peeters has his opposed  twin up for sale, I know that it ran good before quit racing and pulled engine. He has priced reasonably.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on November 25, 2008, 12:09:33 am
im running a 18 opposed, and I had some carb issues earlier this year similar to what you seem to be having. the motor was running awesome, until i unloaded it at the track and then everytime id hit the throttle it would fall on its face, spitting fuel right out the top of the carb. i cleaned it and cleaned it, but id didnt seem to help. I ended up buying a rebuild kit for it, and it has ran great ever since. i still dont know what the original issue was tho
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on November 25, 2008, 07:40:10 am
The carb just needs a rebuild.. these carbs as very simple... just take your time when you take it apart... take pictures if you are unsure on how it goes together.

Clean everything... I wire wheel the butterflies to almost a mirror finish. I know on the high speed jet on the Kohler carb, I used a welding tip cleaner to clean the hole at the bottom..

Make sure EVERYTHING is clean when you reassemble.

Try rebuilding it yourself.. I bet you will be a better tuner once you know how it works...

If you haven't yet... this would also be a great time to shim your valve springs to increase the seat pressure..

Just use a thick washer with a center that will fit snug against the guide.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 25, 2008, 09:19:47 am
Ty, do you know if he has done any upgrades to the engine?  Do you know what he wants for it?  I asked my wife to call her sister and pass my cell number along.  Beth and Lee are good friends with the Peter's from what I hear.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on November 25, 2008, 12:46:19 pm
Far as I know the ignition is advanced, carb mods done and govenor unhooked.Other than that it is stock. 
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on November 26, 2008, 08:09:22 am
Thanks for all the  help Wheelhorseracer and Teamscoot!  I finally got it working last night.  I got a different carb from a guy at work, tore it down and soaked it for about an hour.  Then went through every passage with a torch tip cleaner, blew it out real good and installed a rebuild kit as suggested.  I then set the screws to a turn and a half out and turned it over.  It fired immediatly!  I have a real good idle, and very responsive acceleration now. 

I also learned last night that there is an air intake port on the filter mount flange on the top of the carb for the high speed mixture.  The filter adapter that I made for this carb origionall plugged this port.  It makes sense that if that port is plugged there would be no acceleration through the carb, and thet is the reason I was having the issues with the origional carb.  So I guess I have two working carbs now, but only one of them has a high speed mixture adjustment.  I have read on here that EC modifies the plug that covers the fixed jet to allow for a high speed idle adjustment.  Do they sell that plug and needle as a kit?

Talked to a neighbor by the cabin and I guess there really isnt any snow up there at all, so the tractor is on the back of the truck ready to head up there this afternoon.

Ty, thanks for the heads up on the engine from Chad.  Talked to him last night and I am going to pick it up this weekend.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on November 26, 2008, 09:18:29 am
It feels good to fix your own problem don't it?..:D

I think the more people understand how some of these pieces work, the better they can make them work for their own combination.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on November 26, 2008, 02:54:47 pm
No problem, good luck with the test run
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on December 06, 2008, 08:57:16 am
Sorry I havent posted out here in a while.  Had a few things going on here at home this last week.

The test run went awsome!  This machine handles incredibly well.  Have a few very minor issues to work out, like latches to hold the hood down.  The only thing that broke was the steering hub that I made out of the peerless brake disk.  I will post pictures of that when I get a chance.  I am planning on going with a wilwood removable steering hub from summit racing.  I will weld the spline onto the steering shaft.  I really didnt want to do this, because once this is welded on, I will not be able to remove the steering shaft with out cutting it, due to the fact the pitman arm is also welded to the shaft.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on December 06, 2008, 09:22:59 am
I ran into that last year.. I had to weld both ends too...

They make grinder wheels every day if you need to fix things later... it just takes more time..
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on December 06, 2008, 11:07:23 pm
Wheelhorseracer, Thank you very much for all of your help on this build.  I really appreciate it.  Maybe one day we will get a chance to race against one another.  I have never been to Canada before.........

And thank you to everyone else who posted thgoughout my build.  I truely appreciate all of the comments and all of the help everyone provided.  This really is a great sport mostly because everyone is willing to help each other out.  I spent quite a few years involved in stock car racing and i know first hand you would never find this kind of support there.

I am really excited about this comming season.  I do not expect to run all that well, but I do expect to learn a lot and meet a lot of great people....And honestly that is why I decided to get involved in this.  I am an engineer by trade so  naturally I have an inquisitive mind and I am always willing to learn.........and I never pretend that I know everything.  In my career I have met a lot of great engineers who do not have a college degree, and some who have a PHD who I swear can barely tie their own shoes
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on December 07, 2008, 09:48:09 am
Don't be so sure you won't run well..

Last year was my rookie year.. and I just kept asking questions, working on my set-up, and just learning to drive. I ended up 3rd in points in the second highest class with WOO..

If you discover a handling issue.. post it on here and we will help you with a baseline set-up.. Every tractor is different.. but I know I was dealing with a TERRIBLE handling tractor in the beginning on of the year..I posted it here and got a baseline air pressure set-up from George Herrin and I tuned from there.. It changed the whole handling so dramatically, and then I was competitive.

I used to practice the same time as a seasoned driver.. I would follow him around, learning braking, gassing point and how he was attacking the corner.. this shortened my learning curve I think..

Good luck...



Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on December 12, 2008, 07:57:43 pm
wheelhorseracer, just out of curiosity, what was the basline air pressures u started to be competitive with?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on December 12, 2008, 08:58:09 pm
LF 10lbs      RF:8lbs
LR: 4lbs      RR: 12lbs

No more than 2 lb difference in the front..

This was a combination of George Herrin and Nor66. It really brought my mower alive.. then I tuned from it..

I should thank both of them.. because without figuring this out.. I wouldn't have gotten a 3rd in points in my rookie year...

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on December 12, 2008, 09:30:21 pm
And everything I know, was learn't from George!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: jerb on December 12, 2008, 10:06:18 pm
was reading your post about welding your steering hub on and not being able to remove steering shaft, a simple solution could be a straight collar put somewhere in between hub and pitman arm, a pieco of bushing with a 5/8'' inner diamater would work, just drill and tap the bushing to hold the shafts in it, word of caution tho, drill into the steering shaft an 1/8'' so the set screws have some good bite, 2 set screws loctited in on each side would work well, i used extra long allan bolts with thin locknuts on my u-joint on my build much for the same reason, so i could remove the steering shaft, hope this helps, build looks sharp, keep up the good work!! ;)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on December 12, 2008, 11:02:24 pm
Thanks for the advice guys!  I really appreciate it!!!!!!

I put a post out here a while back about an adjustable main jet kit for the opposed carb and I never got any feedback on it.  George, does EC sell a kit for this conversion?  It would be nice to have a spare carb ready to rock if the need presents itself.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on December 12, 2008, 11:21:39 pm
I have seen some post that briggs made a needle for that carb I have yet to see it or find it. We do not sell one specically for it. We do make one using the drain nut and a tilly needle. But do not sell it we do it if we convert one to a dominator series build.

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on January 09, 2009, 08:40:45 pm
I hope everyone had a good Christmas and New Years!  This was the first Christmas for my son, so it was very exciting for my wife and I as well as our son!!!!

Does anybody know when the 2009 rules for ARMA will be published?  Unless I am missing something I have not seen them yet.

I cannot wait for the racing season to begin!!!!!!!!!  I also cant wait for the weather to warm up so i can get some color on this machine!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on January 09, 2009, 10:38:14 pm
Here are some pics of the broken steering hub i made from a peerless brake disc. 

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2268.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2268.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2269.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2269.jpg)

I will replace it with this part from Wilwood.
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2271.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2271.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2272.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2272.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on January 10, 2009, 08:37:44 am
Cast parts never live... I'm glad you posted that so other can see that they shouldn't modify cast parts
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on February 27, 2009, 08:22:23 pm
Well it is almost time to tear this beast apart to start painting.  I have seen a lot of posts on here with different painting methods.  What do you guys really recommend?

My plans were to prep everything really good, hit it all with a couple coats of  self etching primer, and then about 3 or 4 coats with a rattle can of farm implement paint.

Am I going down the wrong road?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Gary Elder on February 27, 2009, 10:52:05 pm
Personally, I think rattle caning it is fine. It's cheap, easy to touch up, and looks decent. Automotive paint is nice, but it might get messed up while racing.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on February 28, 2009, 12:17:48 am
Rattle can jobs can look really nice, but never as nice as auto paint.
But as Gary eluded to, the auto paint is alot more work to touch up, and cost quite a bit more!
Good can paint, with a few coats of clear will look great!

I dobnt think anyone ever answered you on the choke question.
Pull it, tap the shaft hole 1/4-20 and loctite set screws to seal them.
A tuned carb doesn't need a choke to start. And it will cut down flow.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: jerb on February 28, 2009, 12:31:21 am
not a big fan of peerless brake hubs!!!!! :lol: :lol:, if they cast, they will break, doesnt matter if it's a steering wheel hub or a hub for a sprocket!!!(GRRRRRR)they will break, that wilwood piece will serve ya nicely, and much, much, much stronger!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 06, 2009, 07:32:23 pm
If this hub broke like this as a steering hub, I can only imagine what it would do if someone tried to use it as a brake at these speeds.  There is no way in heck you would stop.  My MCP's lock the wheels up tight if I lean on them!

So color opinions......

I am thinking yellow frame and orange tins.... any opinions? I dont want to look too much like Lvine!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on March 07, 2009, 09:41:48 am
Lee's mower is either all yellow, or at least mostly yellow. Yellow and orange.that would change it up  ..and it would defiantely get you noticed!

There is already a yellow and black cp/mod-x that you will be racing against here. There are pictures of it on here under post your pics. His name on here is taw77, that's my brother in law, Troy. In case you wanted to check it out to mix it up a bit and don't want yours to look just like his. Oh, there might be better pics on the BSMRA site too.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on March 07, 2009, 12:05:30 pm
Yup,
My SP has all yellow tins (black frame) and the BP will be the same when I get to it.
Brent Purdy has a CP from North Dakota that is yellow as well (he has been talking about painting his BP to match).

We will both be running a limited WILMRA schedule in 09' so there will be plenty of Yellow on the track hopefully only just the mowers not the flags...

(My avitar picture is old)

Al Bitterman was my inspiration for the Gilson build, he used to run an all red one and at one point green/yellow and they looked pretty sharp. Ryan Kerr had a Ford that looked pretty good in blue/white.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 13, 2009, 08:00:56 pm
Thanks for the input guys!  I appreciate it!

I think I have decided on the final colors.

I am going to go with a Yellow frame and dash, and orange fenders, floorboards, and hood.  I am also thinking I will go with either number 13 or 29. Does anyone in the mod-X class in wisconsin have those numbers?
I was also wondering if there is any way I can get this machine teched out before i paint it and before the season begins.  I would hate like heck to go to a race only to find out I have something that isnt going to pass.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on March 13, 2009, 08:19:46 pm
Nobody that comes to mind has numbers 13 or 29. As far as checking it out, I would shoot Bert an email, as I am not sure who is doing tech this season, and see what he says. We do have some unsanctioned races with the Brothers Of the Blade coming up, in the Wisconsin Rapids, Stevens Point area, that if you could come to would be great. If you need his email just shoot me a p.m.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 13, 2009, 08:22:36 pm
Thanks Ed!  I have Bert's email, I will try and contact him.  Do you know any of the dates for the brothers of the blade races?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on March 13, 2009, 08:26:38 pm
Not off the top of my head, but they are posted on the BSMRA site.
http://bsmra.smfforfree4.com/index.php
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 13, 2009, 08:27:23 pm
Thanks man!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on March 13, 2009, 09:45:36 pm
The # 13 in the racing community is not used often. Some say its bad luck.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: jerb on March 13, 2009, 09:57:25 pm
superstitious are we? well, guess i did have a bad day! :lol:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on March 13, 2009, 09:59:51 pm
Well I need all the luck I can get! :D

Don't want to find out if its true  :lol:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 14, 2009, 12:01:14 am
I hear ya ron, but im willing to take my chances!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on March 16, 2009, 03:20:08 pm
Lol...I wouldn't take advice onluck from a guy on a green mower!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on March 16, 2009, 07:14:04 pm
Yea you don't see too many Green race cars either.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ironmike on March 16, 2009, 09:25:09 pm
All you people say green is bad. Look at Scott Bloomquest or Kyle Bush or The Grave Gigger (Monster Trucks race to)  Just about every green racer i have ever seen runs up front. Green is good luck if you ask me cause it looks like money. But #13 yea stay away from it. LOL

IronMike
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on March 17, 2009, 10:24:52 am
When I was a young boy, barely 9 years of age, I had the priviledge to race quarter midgets in Tulsa OK.
Some of my fellow contestants became aware of my fathers unfounded belief that green was an unlucky shade to be involved with in the racing world.
Being quite the troublesome young load of chaps, they wrapped a piece of green duct tape aound my brothers roll cage.
My brother not only crashed out of the next race, he all but destroyed the car.

Discount the validity of superstition if you wish, but forget not that superstitions are not always founded on unfounded means.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowinmachine on March 17, 2009, 10:41:31 am
Quote
The # 13 in the racing community is not used often. Some say its bad luck.

Oh well! That's my number.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on March 17, 2009, 11:50:36 am
How about that green #11 WOO sprint car? He's been kicking butt in that thing for ever.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 17, 2009, 07:23:22 pm
Well here it is.....Minus the engine obviously.

I removed the govenor from the motor today, and in doing so the crankshaft moved and so did the cam, so obviously I needed to retime it.  According to the way I understood the Briggs manual, all you have to do is line up the timing marks on the crank gear with the mark on the cam shaft, and that is what i did.  however in doing this cant it be 180 degrees off from where it needs to be.  I guess what I am asking is do I need to pull the valve cover and check valve position as well, or just line up the dots and I'm good to go?????

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2321.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2321.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2322.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2322.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2323.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2323.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2324.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2324.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2325.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2325.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2326.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2326.jpg)

Planning on droping the motor in tomorrow morning!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 17, 2009, 08:52:40 pm
After thinking about it a little more, I think I have answered my own question.  The crank spins 4 times for every 1 revolution of the cam, so the dots are only going to line up once.  Or am I way off???????
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on April 17, 2009, 09:08:31 pm
Yup your right.
uild is looking good!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: DoNoHo on April 17, 2009, 09:25:06 pm
After thinking about it a little more, I think I have answered my own question.  The crank spins 4 times for every 1 revolution of the cam, so the dots are only going to line up once.  Or am I way off???????

Whaded he say?

crank makes 2 r's to cam 1  ,   dont it?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on April 17, 2009, 11:21:17 pm
Lol, I missed that, I meant yup the dots line up you cant get it wrong, ut yeah your right 2 r's on crank. :doh:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 17, 2009, 11:35:08 pm
OK I stand corrected.  2 revs on the crank for every rev on the cam.  Gotcha.  Thats actually what I meant to type but hit the wrong key.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 18, 2009, 12:17:45 am
Sorry Lee, didnt mean to steal too much of your color, but I love yellow!   I also fixed all of those sharp points on the front end you pointed out a while back.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on April 18, 2009, 09:37:57 pm
Looks great. There is a race with Brothers of the Blade coming up May 3rd at the Pour House in Wisconsin Rapids, and then one on May 17th at Rusty's backwater saloon just outside Stevens Point. Would be great if you could make it to one or both of them, plus it would give you a chance to run it a bit before the big races start. In case you do come, they are small tracks. Think Bristol or Martinsville, but a blast to race at.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: badboysracing on April 18, 2009, 09:56:11 pm
Where are you from. If racing Wisconsin. The number 29 is already taken so you should go with something like 029
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 20, 2009, 11:18:43 am
Redline,

Whats the deal with the Brothers of the Blade races?  Are they a show up and race type thing?  Any entry fees?  What rules do they run?    What time do they start?  I would like to make it to at least one of them.  The one on the 3rd is probably going to be a little difficult, but I am trying to move some things around.  Bert said I could probably get my mower teched are the race in Rapids.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: amr5080 on April 20, 2009, 11:31:34 am
nice looking mower. My brother has one just like that in near mint condition he wants to sell if anyone is interested. They have loooooooooong wheel base stock, I think around 48" and as you can see make a sweet racing mower.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 20, 2009, 02:15:25 pm
George.....  What does EC have for a velocity stack that will fit the carbs on the opposed motors?  Part #?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on April 20, 2009, 02:21:53 pm
Redline,

Whats the deal with the Brothers of the Blade races?  Are they a show up and race type thing?  Any entry fees?  What rules do they run?    What time do they start?  I would like to make it to at least one of them.  The one on the 3rd is probably going to be a little difficult, but I am trying to move some things around.  Bert said I could probably get my mower teched are the race in Rapids.

Basically yes, it is a show up and race. Their rules are based off the ARMA rules, so if you comply with them, you will be fine. They do a tech insp. and make sure you have the safety gear. It costs $5 to race with them. We usually get to the venues around noon. Tech, and drivers meeting starts before the qualifying/racing, and that is normally at 2. There is a practice between 1 and 2 usually. So if you are there between 12 and 1, you should be just fine. And most of the guys that will be at those races, you will be seeing at the ARMA events. As long as you have your safety equipment/gear, you will be able to race with them, but by looking at your pics, passing tech should not be a problem either. Hope to see you there!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LVine2001 on April 20, 2009, 04:35:14 pm
Sorry Lee, didnt mean to steal too much of your color, but I love yellow!   I also fixed all of those sharp points on the front end you pointed out a while back.

Not a problem.. if it runs as good as it looks you should be in good shape !!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 23, 2009, 04:38:23 pm
Well...Here it is complete and ready to rock!

I wanted to thank all of you guys out here for all of your help throughout this build.  I have gotten a lot of comments and suggestions that helped me get this thing done the right way!  I am really looking forward to this season!!!

I also wanted to thank my old man for pullin through and buying me a nice miller welding helmet when the old piece of junk I had gave out and my toy fund was dried up.  Without that new addition to the shop I would't have been able to finish this project.  It is amazing how much a good helmet can help when your welding!!!

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2327.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2327.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2328.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2328.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2329.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2329.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2330.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2330.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2331.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2331.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2332.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2332.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2333.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2333.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2334.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2334.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2335.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2335.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on April 23, 2009, 04:49:58 pm
Looks real nice.  See you on the track!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old Goat on April 23, 2009, 05:29:26 pm
Lookin really nice!  :wow:  Lots of attention to detail!   I don't know how your going to stay in the seat? Them kinda seats are hard to stay in without a sidebrace.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on April 23, 2009, 07:06:37 pm
Lookin really nice!  :wow:  Lots of attention to detail!   I don't know how your going to stay in the seat? Them kinda seats are hard to stay in without a sidebrace.
I ran all season last year without a side bolster, then added one for this year...I'll never be without it again!

Mower looks great!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: philr85 on April 23, 2009, 08:53:44 pm
good job sweet for a gilson
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on April 23, 2009, 10:57:07 pm
Mower looks Great!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on April 23, 2009, 11:47:44 pm
Lookin really nice!  :wow:  Lots of attention to detail!   I don't know how your going to stay in the seat? Them kinda seats are hard to stay in without a sidebrace.

The first time I tested my mower, I couldn't get out of second gear because I would have been thrown off, of course the 38" wheelbase didnt help lol. I think you will find with a sidebrace, you will be more comfortable, and have more control. That thing looks really good tho, nice and bright lol. That 18 opposed will definitely get the job done
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on April 24, 2009, 12:30:42 am
I have been thinking about a side brace for the seat.  Did you guys just take some 1/8 or 1/4" aluminum and fasten it to the side of the seat with sheet metal screws?

I havent tested it on a track so I am sure I will be in for a big suprise the first turn I go into!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on April 24, 2009, 12:49:33 am
Mine is like 18 or 16 gauge sheet metal, welded on.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 02, 2009, 11:21:58 pm
I took the advice from you guys and added a side support to the seat.  What a difference it makes!!!  Now I can focus on driving rather than keeping my rear in the seat!!

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2350.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2350.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2351.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2351.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2352.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2352.jpg)

Thanks for all the advice and compliments from you guys!  I really appreciate it!

We had my little guys first birthday party today!  It was a blast!  He loves the mower!  Crawls all over it when we are out in the shop together!  He grins from ear to ear when I start it, and he is only 1. Obviously I dont rev it up or start it in the shop where it could hurt his ears.  Cant wait to see what the future holds with that enthusiasm!!!  I think im going to need a bigger shop!  That would be terrible wouldnt it???????????

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2342.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2342.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on May 02, 2009, 11:34:56 pm
Thats Awesome!!!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on May 03, 2009, 08:25:58 am
Look at the junior class at WOO (http://www.extrememowers.com/folder1/fourm/index.php). They are starting kids racing at 4. Maybe you can get the same thing started with your club..
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 04, 2009, 08:58:47 am
Have any of you used the Trailtech Vapor computer on your mowers?  It is a RPM/TEMP/MPH computer that looks like it might work out great, and it is only around $100.  Just wanted to know if anyone has tried one of these and had sucess or not.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on May 05, 2009, 10:03:00 pm
I stopped by my local honda dealer earlier today and asked about the Vapor. There was an employee selling the "Endurance" type which doesnt have the rmp sensor, but I was still able to get some good info from him. I also just sent an email to the manufacturer, who is only 40 miles from my house! who knew lol. Ill let you know what they say. I asked mainly about the how the rpm sensors hook up. But i was informed that the vapor has a lot of cool functions including odometer, trip-meter, clock, stopwatch, rpm, speedo, shift lights, temp gauge, it also has an hour meter for the lifetime of the engine as well as recall on how long the motor was ran for the last time it was on. I think I might get one if the rpm hook up is easy to deal with. I did some reading on bike/atv forums and people there seem to really like them
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 05, 2009, 11:01:14 pm
Yea thats what I was reading about them as well.  The The tach looks like it hooks up with a wire you wrap around the spark plug wire.  There are settings for .5, 1, and two revs per spark.  I got that info from the owners manual on the manufactures website.  There are also videos of the vapor on youtube that show the response speed.  I thought the bar graph had a pretty quick response but the actual numbers on the display lagged a bit.  But then again, I am not sure you can beat all of the features this gauge has to offer for around $100,
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on May 06, 2009, 12:30:02 pm
Got a response from them, he said it will work just fine with a mower, already had some people use em on mowers. just like you said, rpm sensor wraps around plug wire, and they have pics on their website as to how to mount the speed sensor
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 06, 2009, 03:45:35 pm
I talked to them this morning too.  Looks like a real solid unit.  The kit they recommended is #75-704.  I just ordered one from them, so I should have it early next week.  Hopefully it all works out as planned!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on May 06, 2009, 08:00:27 pm
right on you probably talked to the same guy i did cuz thats what he recommended as well. let me know how it works for ya, cuz im probably going to get one too
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 06, 2009, 08:10:51 pm
Teamscoot, will do!  Should be here by next Tuesday.

As far as helmets go, can you use a SA2000 or does it need to be SA2005?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 08, 2009, 05:13:02 pm
Got my membership package today from the UPS man.  Cool stuff in there!  Isnt there a membership card or something like that from ARMA?

The other question I have is in regards to belts.  What brand belts are you guys using?  Rotary?  I have ben using the cheap ones from a local farm supply, and they definatly burn up quick.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on May 08, 2009, 05:17:11 pm
You will get your card in the mail later. As for belts, I get them from E.C., or pm mowindown (Jed) on here, he can get you the red rotary ones. Either are good belts.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 21, 2009, 10:34:42 am
Teamscoot, the Vapor is not too bad, especially for the price.  The refresh rate on the RPM isnt the fastest, however all you really need is the recall anyway.  If you get one, make sure you get an extension for the engine temp sensor, because the stock one is not long enough.  Also they make a speed sensor that has a threaded barrel instead of the sticky back type.  That will make mounting it a little simplier.  I made a bracket to hang the sensor over my rear axle, and simply wrapped electrical tape around the axle and the magnet for the sensor.  It was just suppose to be a temporary thing, but it actually held up very well.    Averall, for $120 there is no way you can beat this system.  A tach alone would cost you that much from a lot of other places.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 29, 2009, 10:37:04 am
I am going to remove the fuel pump pulse line from the engine block on my opposed.  Is there any particular spot on the intake to drill and tap and add a barb for this pulse line?  Or is there another better place to locate this?

The other thing I wanted to ask is about steering wheels.  Are you guys running aluminum or steel steering wheels?  Has anyone had problems with aluminum steering wheels bending?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 02, 2009, 04:58:27 pm
Does anyone know the difference between the cams Don does for the opposed motors compare to the cam precision does?  I have been trying to get in tough with Don for two weeks now and no luck.  The precision cam is a bit more expensive but I am tired of waiting.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on June 02, 2009, 05:25:21 pm
Precision cams are computer designed and are ground on a CNC camshaft grinder. Always their when ya need em and back up their work. They work with you to provide you with a cam your are satisfied with in every way. I say this because its all I use now in every engine I race and build.

PRECISION CAMS
215 Beval Road
Wilmington, NC 28401
Hours of Operation:
Monday - Thursday 9a.m. - 6p.m.
Friday - 9a.m. - 3p.m.
Saturday "Gone Racing!"
FOR PHONE ORDERS (910)251-0612
TECH SUPPORT & FAX (910)251-1762
E-MAIL US AT pcams@precisioncams.com
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: philr85 on June 03, 2009, 12:06:46 am
george what price ranges do they have? $100-$300?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 03, 2009, 07:52:53 am
Mike at Precision quoted me $225.  I dont know what the lift and duration is though.  I need to get in touch with him again.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 03, 2009, 08:08:58 am
Are you going to have it ready for the race on the 20th?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 03, 2009, 08:19:49 am
I will be ready for the 20th.  Dont know if I will have the cam by then, but I will be there for sure!  I made some changes to help with the steering issues and Im excited to see how much better it works.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on June 03, 2009, 08:45:13 am
george what price ranges do they have? $100-$300?
Depends on your cam and request. Singles generally 165.00 twins generally 225.00. These are not quotes they are estimates call mike for exact pricing.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 03, 2009, 11:19:20 am
I called Mike about the cam, and it is on its way to me this afternoon.  Now that is awsome service!!!  He thought the only thing I would need to do is replace the valve springs and keepers, but other than that basically drop in the new cam and go. 
I have heard some stories where heads need to be clearanced and cranks need to be ground for cam clearance.  Has anyone had to do these mods when they put a cam in the opposed motors?  Any other issues with putting in a bigger cam in these motors?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: mowinmachine on June 03, 2009, 11:41:05 am
Aluminum steering wheels work fine. I have one on mine and last race I flipped my mower and it landed on the steering wheel. It bent it just a little but I was able to bend it back into shape. Anything that you can buy that's lightweight will help. Every little bit adds up.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 03, 2009, 02:46:49 pm
Don't drop it in and go, lol.
Install the cam and rotate to make sure everything clears, you should've already ground crank for oiling anyway, right?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 03, 2009, 04:08:25 pm
I should have, but I havent yet Roosterlew.  I was kind of waiting for some billet rods before I completely rebuild everything and was going to grind the crank at that time.  Maybe I should just do it now to be on the safe side.  Can I turn the top rod over so the oil hole faces the slinger without replacing the rod, piston and rings?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 04, 2009, 11:48:46 am
Yes, you can pull cap, push piston up, rotate crank out of the way, and spin it 180, then reassemble and retorque it.
But if I was taking it apart anyways I'd pull the rod out, drill the cap and chamfer the oil holes, the reinstall them, not much more work and alot more oiling!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 04, 2009, 02:59:57 pm
Thanks for the advice roosterlew!  I just watched Don's video again last night and took notes so I should be set.  I am trying to find another block to work on incase something goes wrong, then I still have my stock motor I can race with.  I am finding that it is not easy to find these 42ci cast bores, and when you do find them the people who have them think they are plated in gold or something with what they are asking for them.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 04, 2009, 05:44:38 pm
The biggest problem with them, they work great for grass cutting and last forever if taken care of, so yeah they can be hard to get the owners to part with,lol!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on June 04, 2009, 09:18:45 pm
Thanks for the advice roosterlew!  I just watched Don's video again last night and took notes so I should be set.  I am trying to find another block to work on incase something goes wrong, then I still have my stock motor I can race with.  I am finding that it is not easy to find these 42ci cast bores, and when you do find them the people who have them think they are plated in gold or something with what they are asking for them.
how much are you willing to spend? I have good running one.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 05, 2009, 08:10:53 am
Ty, Thanks for the offer but I bought one last night.  I tore it all down last night and it is in really good shape.  If I can get the flywheel in time I should have it ready for the race on the 20th, otherwise I will just run my stock motor again.
Does anyone know if you can still get the old asbestos type head gaskets for the opposed motors?  If so do you have a part number?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 05, 2009, 09:45:41 pm
Its been quite a while since I posted any pics, so i thought I would take a few to show a few updates, and what I'm working on for this machine.

I updated the steering wheel to a 17" from a 12.5".  Wow, what a difference!  I also added a Trailtech computer system which it pretty cool for the price.  It does tach, mph, outside air temp, head temp, distance traveled, time, mph recall, and tach recall.
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2365.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2365.jpg)

I am planning on updating the my spindles to the EC parts with bearings.  I am trying to reduce the steering effort on this machine.  With that opposed twin sitting up front there is a lot of weight on the front end.  This should help out a bit.  I will probably have a set of 3/4" front hubs I bought from EC for sale if anyone is interested.  They only have 1 race on them.
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2360.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2360.jpg)

I got all the steel for a rear bumper cut today.  It still needs a little tweaking before I weld it up, but its close.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2358.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2358.jpg)

I got the motor I bought yesterday all torn down and cleaned up.  Today I got the the block ported, and did the mods for the oiling improvements.  I still have a little more work to do on the block porting.  I took your advice roosterlew and ground the crank right away.  It sounds like billet rods are not too far off in the future so I am planning on modifying the rod caps on the rods I have and using them and the pistons for now.  The pistons and rods in this motor are almost brand new.  You can still see the crosshatch pattern in the cylinder plain as day.  The only thing I am not sure about is if I should put a new set of rings in or not.  I have not taken them off the pistons and measured them in the bore yet.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2367.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2367.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2361.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2361.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2364.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2364.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2363.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2363.jpg)

Can someone explain to me what advantages you get by releiving the valves on the flame face like Don shows in his video, and how far do you go with it?
When you add a cam to the motor, do you ussually need to add to the valve to get the correct lash?  I cannot remember if Mike from Precision said they reduce the base circle or not.  If you do have to add, how do you do it, or do you just cut the seats deeper?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 06, 2009, 11:01:46 am
You have it apart, put rings in it at least. The end gap is may be in Briggs spec, but it will be nowhere near what you want for a race engine.
Did the spindles help with your steering effort issue?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 06, 2009, 01:27:12 pm
Ed, what do you use for a ring gap if the Briggs spec isnt good enough?  Do you need to grind new rings?  Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question, I have never installed rings in a Briggs before.

I am working on putting the spindles in now.  I will let you know.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 06, 2009, 02:22:01 pm
I order .020" oversize rings, and file them to fit. I go with a .003" ring end gap. Thats a little trick I learned from George  ;)  Thats on an OHV single. I don't know if it would be any different on an opposed. Even with a good bore, standard size Briggs rings are usually about .006"-.010" right out of the box, which is fine for a grass cutter.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 06, 2009, 11:35:30 pm
What is the reason for having the rings so tight?  Dont you have to worry about the rings expanding as they get hot?

I am planning on going with the lighter pistons which use different rings when I add the billet rods, so this piston/rod/ring setup I am putting in for now doesnt need to last forever.

Did anyone understand what i was asking about the valves and getting the lash right?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: DoNoHo on June 07, 2009, 10:33:49 am
What is the reason for having the rings so tight?  Dont you have to worry about the rings expanding as they get hot?

I am planning on going with the lighter pistons which use different rings when I add the billet rods, so this piston/rod/ring setup I am putting in for now doesnt need to last forever.

Did anyone understand what i was asking about the valves and getting the lash right?

rings tight - less blow by, more compression.

ligther pistons - a good thing, less rotating weight, quicker rev ups. billett rods? where did you find these ?

releiving the valves - on the block face, where the valves are, cut out the metal from the valve pocket, to the cylinder chamfer. dont cut to deep [ to deep is lower than the chamfer at the cylinder]. at the head gasket line to gasket line, from valves to cylinder. if you can think of a ditch from the barn to the house. then a ditch from the valve pocket to the cylinder.

I think i confused myself !

Valve lash - the space between the valve stim and the lifter in the little hole that you need to make a cover for, the springs go on the valve in there.
When the cam is turned so the lifter is on the heel of the lobe there should be .015 " between them [ the stim and the lifter]

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: tonykummrow on June 07, 2009, 10:51:25 am
Thats some good info right there.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 07, 2009, 10:53:18 am
ARC is working on some billet rods for these motors.  They do not have them yet, but it doesnt sound like they are too far off.  Sounds like the hold up is the bearings.  Thats what they told me anyway.

Dont they make caps for the lifters?  I have read on here that some people are welding the ends of the valve stems and then grinding them down, but I dont know if I feel comfortable doing that.

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 07, 2009, 12:42:12 pm
On the flatty single that I put together, I used the billet extended lifters from E.C., and then filed/ground them to get my valve lash. I don't know if they fit, and/or have them for the opposed engines..that would be the way to go.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: DoNoHo on June 07, 2009, 02:07:42 pm
May be very close on lash now, the ones iv worked on were. If you need more clearence or valve lash cut the lifters, I think if you cut the valves it could get to close to the string retainer and the keeper wont hold the reainer in place and the valve spring will pop loose.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 08, 2009, 12:11:47 am
I got the new spindles installed today.  Havent had a chance to test the machine but everything seems a lot smoother.  Seems like there may be too much ackerman though.  I had to do some custom work for the loop to work correctly.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2369.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2369.jpg)

I even had help installing them.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2368.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2368.jpg)

Got the bumper welded up and installed.  Obviously it still needs to get painted.  The right bracket got twisted a little bit when I welded them up.  I can fix that easily when I pull it back off the frame to paint it.  The chain is hanging down because I took the tranny out to change the oil and I have not reinstalled it yet.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2370.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2370.jpg)

As far as pistons go.  The pistons that came out of the motor looked like this.  They are not scored and no grooving, but there are wear marks, is this normal?  Is this excessive?  You cannot feel any grooves when you rub your fingernail over the skirt.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2371.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2371.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2372.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2372.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: DoNoHo on June 08, 2009, 05:51:54 am
A little much on the pistons, there isnt any grouves to cary oil on the skirt, Id replace them.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 08, 2009, 09:17:55 pm
Redline, the spindles from EC make all the difference in the world.  I think they were well worth the money.  Much better than what I had before.  I think I need to grind a little more away from my endplates to increase the turning radius a little more.  I raised the left front spindle like Bert told me and that has changed the handling of this machine completely.  We will see how it does on a race track though!

I got my cam today from Precision.  I have two questions....  I should have asked Mike when I talked to him today, but I totally forgot.

1.) I am assuming you use the origional timing mark on the cam gear since there are no directions to do otherwise.  Is that true?

2.)If I am going to run a stock flywheel, should I be using an offset key, and what number do you recommend?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 08, 2009, 09:33:44 pm
Good deal on the spindles! Even making the steering effort easier should help with the handling.
If Precision did not put a mark on it, it should be lined up with the factory mark then. Thats how the cams are for the OHV singles are anyway. Could not tell you on the flywheel though!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on June 08, 2009, 10:05:37 pm
yes and yes a #3
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 08, 2009, 10:14:50 pm
Thanks guys.  I think I remember reading that EC has those.  I will call tomorrow.  The stock flywheel is only temporary until a nice shinny new one shows up on my doorstep.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: zach87cp on June 08, 2009, 10:27:53 pm
hey watch out if you race in and take the flywheel off i know from experice ever opposed i have once u race it the flywheel wont come off not even with a puller i talked to other guys about it they said theres is the same way and when i got my cam from don he had it marked two or three teeth off the stock gear on the cam but precisons probly differnt anyways nice gilson i have a mint one like that for sale in the classifieds
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 09, 2009, 12:41:32 am
Yup thats right, all of us racing opposed can only build our motors once!

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 09, 2009, 09:51:10 am
Are you poking fun at me Rooster, I built 3 in one week!

Not very proud of that but it happened. But YES the flywheel was very hard to remove. That fact may have contributed to the 2nd moter lasting 5 minutes. I put the flywheel on and forgot the starter had to go on first. Removing the flywheel to get the starter on was a %^&$# and I may have loosened the timing bolts with all the messing around getting it off. When I started it the timing bolts were loose and started slapping back and forth shearing the key. BOOM, it was gone.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 09, 2009, 10:20:18 am
Seriously you guys have been having an issue removing the flywheel?  I have not had a problem at all.  Do you lap the wheel on?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 09, 2009, 11:54:11 am
Yes, I do.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on June 09, 2009, 12:33:10 pm
Honestly I can remove the starter with the stock flywheel in place done it a million times. 15 years working on thisstuff ya learn a few short cuts.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 09, 2009, 01:04:01 pm
I have the ARC wheel, didn't see a way to put the starter on without using much shorter bolts and didn't feel I'd have enough threads in the block. Next time I have one apart I'm going see what I can figure out.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 09, 2009, 01:07:37 pm
Yeah I was poking fun LC, but not at you.
The opposed flywheel is no harder to remove than any other. And exactly how does racing make them anymore stuck than years of grass clogging and rusting on?
George , I can do the starter without removing flywheel, got the scarred knuckles to prove it, LOL...learned to tape up ring gear ;).
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 09, 2009, 08:27:41 pm
OK....  I need a little advice from the experts.  My valves are cut, and the seats are cut.  I have not lapped them in yet.  I have only checked one cylinder for las so far to get an idea of where Im at, and i am at .031 for the exhaust and .030 for the intake.  I need to be at .015 for both.  If I buy new briggs lifters will that give me my difference?  Any other ideas on how to make valves or lifters grow?  I really do not feell comfortable welding on them especially with a flux core welder.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on June 09, 2009, 08:58:02 pm
You need extended lifters. Either buy them that way or weld and grind em down. I did it once with a fluxcore and it wasn't hard enough.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 09, 2009, 09:31:21 pm
George, does EC have extended lifters for an opposed, and do you know about how much they are?  Otherwise my best bet is to try and find someone to tig some material on the lifters huh?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on June 09, 2009, 09:47:56 pm
We have them for the flat head single, not sure if they will work in the apposed. Will have to do some measuring and see.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 09, 2009, 10:01:58 pm
The lifters I have now have a .997 head and are overall 2.299 tall.  Stem is .294.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on June 09, 2009, 10:15:34 pm
I will try and get some measurements for you tomorrow. I believe I have a set in my shop.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 09, 2009, 10:19:06 pm
Thanks George.  I appreciate it.

As a back-up I am going to take these lifters to work with me tomorrow and see if i can get a tool maker to tig some material on the stem for me.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 09, 2009, 10:26:34 pm
I have a set here, but of course my micrometers are at work. I eyeballed them with a tape measue and came up with this

head- 1 1/8"  or 1.125"
stem- 5/16"  or  .312"
overall length-2 5/16"  or 2.312"

If you need exact, i can get them tomorrow. If they are simply too big, maybe they can be turned down for use in that opposed. If you want, I can bring them with me to the race on the 20th, if you want to get a look at them..they are the extended billet lifters from E.C. for the 28 flattie.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 09, 2009, 10:55:27 pm
Thanks Ed.  If those measurements are correct the stems would need to be turned down.  The legnth is really close though.  I would need exactly 2.315 to make up the .016 I am missing.It looks like they are also $40 a pair (I am assuming it is for a pair), and then add machine cost to that, welding the stems is a lot more cost effective.  I am just worried that the welds will be too soft, especially with a dual spring setup. 


I wanted to have this motor together for the race on the 20th but the days just seem to be flying by and I always run into little snags like this.  May have to just wait till the next race to run this motor.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 10, 2009, 08:36:45 am
The cold lash that Precision calls for, is that with or without springs installed?  The briggs manual gives specs for both.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 10, 2009, 08:50:16 am
Here are better sizes on the lifters-

length  2.286
head  1.134
stem .308

slightly larger, but could probably be workable if welding does not work.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 10, 2009, 10:12:04 am
Thanks ED.  I am having the stock lifters welded right now, so we will see how this works.  I'm learning as I go!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 10, 2009, 10:16:35 pm
I would like to clear up a little confusion here.  Everyone keeps saying to flip the top rod in these opposed engines so the oil hole faces the cam.  When I look at my book, and my engine, the book says that the bottom rod, #2 cylinder, is suppose to have the oil hole facing away from the cam.  So we should be turning the bottom rod over, and not the top rod.  Further, I was told that I could take the cap off the rod and turn the rod 180* and reinstall the cap.  According to the book I am reading, you cannot do that because the piston pin is offset in the piston.  Briggs says that the notch in the piston always needs to face towards the flywheel.  This is section 12 page 6 of the shop manual for the twin L head engines.

Am I just all turned around backwards here, or whats the deal?  Maybe I just cant read, or I am not understanding this at all.

I would have swore in Dons video he said to turn the top rod over so it faces towards the cam and the slinger.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 11, 2009, 12:39:13 am
1st..nice catch.
2nd, book is wrong!
go look at your motor, top rod when you open back cover the oil hole will be looking at you!
And so far I have flipped 3 rods that way, pin's not offset?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 11, 2009, 08:32:51 am
My top rod wasnt like that, which is what got me all confused in the first place.  My rods were installed exactly like my book says.  Bottom hole away from cam, and top hole towards cam.  I will have to take a picture of the diagram in my book and post it here.

Bottom line is both oil holes should be facing the oil slinger correct?

Roosterlew, if you have been flipping rods like that and havent had any problems, then I wont worry about it.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 11, 2009, 10:49:41 am
Here is what I was talking about from my book.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_DSC00798.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=DSC00798.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_DSC00797.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=DSC00797.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 11, 2009, 11:34:01 am
YUP, bottom line is they need to be towards slinger!

When I read this last night, you made me doubt myself, so I looked at my book, then I went out in the garage and looked at 2 engines, both had top rod w/oil hole at me? Book has been wrong before!
Neither had offset pins.
If yours is like the book, you might have something I have never seen. Remember these engines were made in more than one plant, so possible there are some differences!
If I was you I'd check the pistons, make sure!
I have never seen an engine with the rods in it the way the book says, I would not follow advice from any one who has never seen an engine like yours!

Another thing I noticed last night, the opposed did not use the locking tabs for the rod bolts. I knew this but never though anything of it.Every one of them I have ever seen with a galled rod, the rod bolts were loose in. Naturally I always assumed that happened after spinning the rod. But just got me to wondering if there is an issue with the bolts coming loose, causing the spun rods? My next engine will have something to lock those bolts!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 11, 2009, 11:52:30 am
Roosterlew, I have a feeling that my engine has been rebuild before, so that is probably why it was assembled the way it shows in the repair manual.

When I put it back together, both oil holes will be facing the slinger, and both piston notches will be towards the flywheel.  I have also added holes to the back of the rods so that should help with oiling as well.

It is funny that you mention that about the locking tabs on the rod bolts.  I was actually thinking the same thing last night.  I read in the book that the washers under the bolts are "special washers," but I dont know what is so special about them other than diameter.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 11, 2009, 12:00:05 pm
 :twothumbsup: That's how I'd do it.
Chamfer them oil holes too! Funnel that oil in there, as you mentioned you own Don's video, I assume your doing all the other stuff he mentions!

Remember, you can get all the advice you want off of here, and most of it is great. But in the end common sense and what is in front of you is what matters. It's your engine, and your money. If I tell you to do something, and that engine blows apart.... I wouldn't sit and wait for a check from me! LOL
Don't get me wrong, we all try to give the best advice, and I never tell someone to do something I have not done myself, but things get lost over miles and translations!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 11, 2009, 12:13:18 pm
The holes are already chamfered so I am all set.

I have done all the mods, minus the piston and rod changes.  I am waiting on those until the billet rods are available.(Hopefully really soon)  I have one head clearanced, and planning on doing the other tonight.  Are you guys putting about .040 valve clearance in the heads?  Hopefully going to put some fire in the hole on Saturday!

I couldnt agree more about the common sense thing!  Sorry if some of the question I have posted here sound stupid, but I am just really trying to understand what is going on here.  I see no value in just slapping something together and hoping it works with no understanding of what your doing.  Thats like copying someones homework or something as far as I'm concerned.  It also makes fixing it a lot harder!

Speaking of stupid questions.  With this cam, I do not have to have the springs installed when I set the lash do I?  The reason I ask is because the Briggs book give lash specs for both springs installed, and not installed.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 11, 2009, 01:52:07 pm
Honestly, lol, I don't know what I run for clearance, I put the heads on, with long bolts and no gaskets, 3 pireces of masking tape on top of the valve, hold the head against the block and turn it over...if head pushes away, you need more clearance.
Not real scientific, but a method I was taught years ago and just never done anything different.

I set lash with no springs, been told that was fine, been told that was stupid...I don't know, but thats how I do it.
Then I check them assembled.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 12, 2009, 08:36:43 am
Is anyone running the dual springs and retainers from EC in their opposed?  Any issues?  I have them sitting here and it just seems like a lot of spring pressure sompared to the stock ones.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Mike Gentry on June 12, 2009, 10:08:06 am
We've got a guy here in the club who just installed a set on his opposed with no issues at all. And if you install them at 1.25 spring height , i think it will give you around 35-40 lbs. of seat pressure .
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 12, 2009, 12:38:58 pm
I have read on here that EC sells keepers for the billet spring retainers.  Are they just stock briggs retainers, or are they something special?  I was planning on using the stock keepers for this motor, will that not hold up?  Also it sounds like some people are cutting the intake valve stem higher for the retainers, and some are not.  Is there a right and wrong way, or as long as you have .030" between the coils you're good?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 12, 2009, 01:12:38 pm
If you use the E.C. retainers, you don't need to cut the valve. They are specially made that way.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 12, 2009, 02:16:18 pm
I guess I will have to look at the retainers again closer.  I thought they were both the same.  I have the 262 retainers.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 12, 2009, 04:11:29 pm
From what I can tell both of these retainers look the same.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 12, 2009, 11:14:47 pm
Got the motor put together and fired up.  RUNS LIKE A TOP!!!  Started on th first try.  All I have to say is WOW!!!  I can only imagine what a billet flywheel will do for this motor!  Cant wait!!

The one thing that I didnt put back in the motor are the intake valve stem seals.  Are they really needed?   I have read a few posts where guys were not putting them in their motors.  Just wondering what effect that will have.

Thanks again to everyone for your help.  I really appreciate it!!!!!!


With offset keys on this motor, does every number key bump the timing 2*?  George recommended a #3, and that is what I got.  I am just curious how this all works because I have read here that guys are putting up to #9 keys in, which is quite a change if every key is 2*.

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 16, 2009, 12:38:35 pm
So are you going to have the flywheel on for satuday? Hope the weather's good. See you there!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 16, 2009, 04:36:43 pm
No flywheel for this race.  ARC didnt get it done in time.  Will there be practice time Sat. morning?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: taw77 on June 16, 2009, 04:54:07 pm
There should be plenty of practice time.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 17, 2009, 08:24:13 am
Thats great!  I cant wait.  Hopefully the rain holds off!! 
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on June 17, 2009, 09:13:13 am
AS of this morning, weather is supposed to be 80*, and sunny.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 17, 2009, 09:25:00 am
Thats great!  I hope it works out like that!  Im planning on heading to the cabin tomorrow night to do a little testing.  Hope everything holds together with this new motor, because I dont think I will have room in the truck to bring the back-up motor!  I think I am going to put a little more gear in this machine, especially with 150' straights.  We will have to see!!!  I am planning on being there around 9:30 if tech starts at 10.  See you guys there.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 22, 2009, 02:58:41 pm
Anyone running external fuel pumps on their opposed motors?  If so what are you running.  I am worried about switching to an external pump and overpowering the float needle seat and having flooding issues.

I think I am having fuel delivery problems.  The machine will run great for about 7-8 laps, and then it starts to cough like it is starving for fuel when you get on it coming out of the corners.  I am 110% sure this carb it clean, and the fuel pump on the carb was just rebuilt with new parts.  I also did not have this issue prior to the new cam and port work.  That is why I am thinking fuel pump.  Any other ideas?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 22, 2009, 04:49:08 pm
I’m VERY interested to read any replies to this. I have same engine and same problem.........I’m fine in hot laps and heat races (6 & 8 laps) then after 8 – 10 laps in the feature I have the same problem. Seems to starve for fuel or possibly drop 1 cylinder off and on, I’m not 100% sure but one or the other. Only difference is I’m not sure it’s always in the corner but that is a possibility. I’ve made several changes after the first time and it did it again so I made some more changes but have not raced again after the second set of changes.

1st time I moved the fuel line (cooler location), shortened the fuel line and cleaned the carb. I really thought it was because I filled the fuel cell too full and the fuel was plugging the vent holes so I only filled it 2/3 full for these races.

This time I moved the fuel line again, installed a bigger high jet, changed the coil, changed the plugs, drilled more vent holes in fuel cap and drilled 2  -  3” holes in the headlight area to get more air to the air filter. I also checked for air leaks in the intake, thought possibly when it got hot I was sucking air somewhere.

Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 22, 2009, 05:19:31 pm
You can put an external fuel pump on an opposed motor, as matter of fact some of them came that way.
To do this some carb mods are required.
I don't know which fuel pump would be best to use?
I think i have some pics of the conversion, I will look for them tonight.

Are you running them too lean, they tend to lean out with heat, which heats them up, which leans them out......which burns 'em up!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 22, 2009, 05:30:18 pm
Fixed jet so no real adjustment other that drilling out the jet. I did that on mine but have not run it again yet.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 22, 2009, 07:02:10 pm
I really do not think I am running to lean.  I am not sure if I understand this correctly, but I have plenty left on the high speed adjustment to fatten the mixture, so I do not really see the need to open the jet anymore.  Maybe I am totally misunderstanding this though.  The motor seems to be running rich when you first fire it up.

I was thinking either the stock fuel pump cannot refill the bowl fast enough for a modified engine at 5000 RPM, or there is a problem in the transition between the low speed and the high side circuit.  Maybe some carb mods are in order to fix this issue.  I understand these carbs pretty well, but not enough to start doing modifications to them.

I do not think it is an ignition issue because this is the same coil I have run all along with no issues.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 22, 2009, 10:23:31 pm
Lets keep in touch, one of us will figure it out. So you must have an adjustable main jet? Mine is fixed, best I could figure the stock jet was about .037. I drilled to .038 and had a spare I drilled to .041. I now have the .041 in but as I said have not really run  it yet. I live close to the track and can go run anytime I want to so maybe Saturday I'll go down and run a bunch of laps and see what happens. Other than the fuel problem how did you like it? Love mine when it's running right.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 22, 2009, 10:57:05 pm
Other than the fuel peoblems (or at least I think that is what it is) The motor runs great.  I am sure it will run a lot better with a aluminum flywheel on it.  I talked with ARC this morning and will hopefully have something next week.  We have some REAL strong OHV's in the group that I run with, and it is going to take a lot to contend with these guys.  I am not the lightest guy on the face of the earth either which it going to make it that much harder, but I'm making progress with this machine and learning a lot in the process.  I am the only one running an opposed in BSMRA, and I am into it this far so I gotta see it through and see what happens.  I am mostly trying to get seat time this year anyway so I guess it will all work out in the end.

LC did you have Don do any carb modifications for you?  I was thinking about talking with EC and seeing what they can do, and how much it costs.  I have about 4 carbs here, so I would like to send one in to get it worked on and see if it makes a big difference.

As far as main jets are concerned, yes the carb I am running has an adjustable jet.  I have read on here, and I cannot remember who it was, but they said they drilled their main jet out to .060.  I am sure we will figure this out sooner or later.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 22, 2009, 11:12:51 pm
No mods to my carb except the drilling of the main jet. I wish I could find one with an adjustable. That is good news for me if people are drilling to .060. I'm with you on the "maybe" a fuel problem, not sure but it's my best guess. I'm new to this as well but it's a new track and we're all learning together. I'm plenty fast for the group I'm racing, just can't get to the end.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 22, 2009, 11:29:42 pm
I just read a thread on here where George said the pumps on these carbs are just as good as the external pumps, so now I am even more confused.  Maybe nothing would be gained by going to an external pump.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 23, 2009, 02:22:29 am
If your not used to the opposed, it will seem fat on the bottom, blubbering fat!
As for the ignition, they are notoriously bad on these engines, and i is common for one to work fine cold then not when hot, if you were to slow down for a couple of laps, does the power come back?


Do you have any way of checking the temp? Heat tells alot of stories!

Look at the clues, if it runs fine for awhile, then gradually starts messing up, its almost certainly a heat problem.
If it is only off the corner, it's probably not an ignition issue, heat soaked ignition will be bad throughout rpm range.
So what options do you have left?
Plain and simple, the carbs on these are not the best, and take some tinkering with as well as some experience with them. So looks like your learning.
If you can get to track to test, go out and richen her up until it barely runs, do 15 laps and see how it does. Then start leaning it out and see if it gets better, but careful when you do,watch your temps, Lean may be mean, but it can also be nasty!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: zach87cp on June 23, 2009, 07:30:01 am
hey i agree with rooster mine did the same thing i put 3 differnt carbs on it still always did it would i put a new coil on and now it doesnt have any problem
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 23, 2009, 09:20:09 am
Rooster,  I have a temp sensor on the #2 head and it ussually runs about 250-275*F.

I have a track, and I will run this on over the week of the 4th and I will play with the mixtures and see what I can come up with.

I have a couple of other coils I could try as well.  Since heat is an issue with these coils, maybe a crank trigger ignition system is the way to go for these motors.  I know Don runs a home made system....Has anyone else tried to do this?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on June 23, 2009, 10:06:49 am
Lol,   shhhhhhhhhhhh!

JK, I am not running one, but working on one now. Also a way to run a better carb.
The opposed carbs are nbasically junk, as are the ignition systems!

That doesn't sounjd like its getting very hot?

Ummmm, Zach...guess I lost you, but I think I said I didn't think it was the ignition.....
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: LC on June 23, 2009, 11:02:53 am
So Rooster (or any other opposed masters) if you were running a fixed jet as I am just what size hole would you drill? I currently have a .041 in there but have not run it other than on the bench, started great (maybe better than ever). I have another one in my pocket right now and was going to stop at a machine shop tonight and drill it out a little. Just unsure how much (only have 2 to play with right now).
I found Roosters comments on this subject, might save him some typing.....

Wardee, the single jet carbs have an adjustable low speed, which is the one on front that you are adjusting. The one on the side is the main jet.
Typically youd say the low speed wouldn't efffect top end, but thats not entirely true. At top end you are still feeding fuel through the low speed and you can get some adjustment, although comparitively not much. Basically to get more top end you have all but shut down the low end needle, which is why you have no transition.
Right down by the throttle blade you'll notice 2 little pin holes in the bore of the carb, one below it and one above it. The one below is your Idle circuit the one above is your transition circuit, these are controlled by the low speed needle. When your at idle and the thrttle blade is all but closed, all of your fuel is coming thru the idle circuit, as you first start to crack open the throttle, the air starts trying to flow around the blade and gets a little turbulent, the air flows good past the back of the blade pulling the needed fuel from the transition circuit to get the revs on their way up thus creating the needed suction to get a good stream of fuel flowing from the emulsion tube.
This is where the opposed carb falls on its face, with out being just blubbering rich on the bottom it won't transition well at all, and once it gets into the top end you have no adjustment!

With yur g-team cam and large intake that engine is begging for fuel on the transition and you have it shut off, so your exactly right it is getting way too much air and not enough fuel to go with it.

This is how i set my low end needle. Turn the needle out at idle until engine begins to bog, if it will at all, i have actually taken the low end needle out and had them not complain, these are hungry critters!
now turn it in 1/4 turn and hit the throttle. repeat until it starts to stumble on the transition. then turn it back out 1/4 turn.
I used to back off 1/8th, but i have found as they heat up they lean out, turning it back 1/4 turn and after a coupe of laps it 'll pick up a little bit.

Without and adjustable main needle in these carbs, once you come off of idle you got what you got. I drill the main jet out to .060, with don's cam you might go bigger, but do it in stages because the only way to ind the best size is to keep drilling until you get too big, then toss that jet and drill a new one a little smaller.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on June 23, 2009, 11:58:07 am
LC, I called EC today and they kind of thought that the motor is simply not getting enough fuel and air with the stock carb.  I am thinking about sending a carb in to have it modified. 

George, have you modified these carbs before, and is there a lot to gain?

Does anybody have a source on heavy duty inner tubes for the front and the back tires?  Maybe even ones with metal valve stems?????
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 08, 2009, 10:06:13 pm
Just a quick update.  I have got my carb problems solved.  More than enough carburation now!  This is thanks to some very helpful advice from the people in these forums!

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2396.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2396.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2397.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2397.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on July 09, 2009, 03:31:22 am
Wow, Way to go!
Where'd th emulsion tube go? LOL
I have done quite a bit to these carbs, but you went a step father, never dreamed that would work!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 14, 2009, 10:30:00 pm
Something shiny came in the mail today!!!!  Here are a couple pics of the new ARC opposed flywheel.
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2404.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2404.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2405.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2405.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: SmallTownBoy on July 14, 2009, 10:48:57 pm
looks sweet man that thing is coming along good :twothumbsup:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on July 15, 2009, 08:48:58 am
Nice, you are going to notice a huge difference in how fast the engine revs off the corner, plus it will decel faster going in. Are you going to be in Amherst on Sunday? If so, see you then.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 15, 2009, 08:55:26 am
Redline, Yea I will be there.  I didnt really get a chance to run this last night because it was too late.  Hopefully if the weather cooperates I will find out later this afternoon.

Did you guys go down to the national races in IN?  How did that go?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on July 15, 2009, 10:03:50 am
Yeah, we went. I won on Sat., Troy finished second. On Sunday I got into a fight with a hay bale. I did ok until it's friends jumped in. Then the mower did a corckscrew with a 180 over the bales. It's all fixed and ready to go now.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 15, 2009, 11:36:04 am
Thats great!  Glad you guys did well and had fun.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 22, 2009, 07:10:48 pm
I am having a huge pushing problem with my mower.  I managed to get my seat forward another 1.5" which puts my butt just in front of the axle now, which should halp some.  When I was looking at the mower tonight it looked to me as if the ackerman is actually reverse of what it should be.  What do you guys think?
Full Left.....
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2408.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2408.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2409.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2409.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2410.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2410.jpg)

Full Right.....
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2411.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2411.jpg)

How do you correct this problem.  These are EC spindles.  My thought was to legnthen the drag link to push the front left more on the left turn, and legnthen the tie rod.  By doing that I would think I would have toe issues in the straightaways though.  Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: fordman21 on July 22, 2009, 07:38:03 pm
If you have one tie rod running across the front, you need to cut the steering arms off the spindles and swing them out until they almost touch your tires. Just draw an imaginary line through the tie rod bolt hole on the steering arm and through the king pin bolt hole right back to the rear axle.....if you did that on both sides it would be in a V shape intersecting in the middle of your rear axle. You would have to lengthen your tie rod across the front when your done. That will help correct the Ackerman, but may not improve your plow condition as much as you would like. Are you running any stagger in the rear tires? how much wedge are you running in the front end?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 22, 2009, 07:43:16 pm
I have the left front 1/2" lower than the right front.  I believe my right rear is 15/16" bigger than the left rear.  I really dont want to go cutting these new spindles apart if I dont have to.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on July 23, 2009, 12:05:21 am
How much caster are you running? Also,if using cross wedge effect,thinking your wedge is wrong, the right side should be lower and the left should be higher. By doing this, will help unload the left rear wheel in the corners, but this also has to work with the right amount of caster, camber, king pin inclination and ackerman.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old school racer on July 23, 2009, 08:33:30 am
The wedge is right, you want the right front higher than the left front. This will unload the left rear in the corner.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 23, 2009, 08:48:38 am
There is 15* caster, 10* KPI and 0* camber on both tires.  I have set this machine up based on all of the reading I have done on here.  I am having a hard time trying to figure out what is wrong.  Not only does the tractor plow real bad in the corner, I also have a heck of a time keeping the inside front on the ground sometimes.  Lower air pressures in the front help, but I dont think I can go a whole lot lower without a tire going down.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old school racer on July 23, 2009, 09:00:29 am
15* caster seem steep? I just find to much caster makes mine a little harder to steer . I also run 6-8* negative camber right front(top in) and pos 2-3* left front(top out). The ackerman like Ryan stated is very important. I also just found with mine I had a little to much frame twist for my wedge to work. I ended up stiffing my frame a little. Hope is helps a little, I know every mowchine handles different but these are some of the things I corrected. ;) 
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Old Goat on July 23, 2009, 09:56:17 am
Getting the ackerman right would help, BUT it will still turn with the spindles the way they are. Set the toe to about 1/8" to 1/4" out. That will help the ackerman a little. I don't think you have the chassis set up quite right. With equal amounts of air in all the tires and the wheels pointed straight ahead you should have more weight on the LF than on the RF, If you have 2 bathroom scales you can put one under each front wheel and check it. I usually just grab hold of a front wheel and lift it up. You should notice a considerable difference between the LF and the RF. A good place to start is about 25 lbs. heavier on the LF. If it still pushes put more weight on the LF. You can do this by taking spacers out from under the LF spindle and putting them above it to drop the spindle. Or you can put a spacer under the RF spindle to raise it up higher. Once you get it close that way and it handles pretty well, then you can fine tune it at the track by changing air pressures in the tires. More air in the LF and RR, or less air in the RF and LR will make it turn better, or if it is too loose you can drop a little air in the LF and RR, or add a little to the RF and LR. Just think of the four tires as if they made a big X and you were looking straight down on it. The more it teeters on the LF and RR the better it will turn. If it is too loose and you feel like your going to spin out in the turn, then you don't want it to teeter as much. I hope this helps.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Carney301 on July 23, 2009, 10:31:51 am
Is the engine you have in the picture close to the top of the page a 18 horse or 16 horse opposed?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 23, 2009, 10:51:34 am
Old Goat, that helps a lot!  Thank You.

Carney, It is a 42ci.  I think it was an 18 or an 18.5 HP.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on July 23, 2009, 12:49:41 pm
Good one Old goat, couldn't say it any better myself.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 24, 2009, 06:20:23 pm
OK, I got my tractor on scales today.  Here is how the numbers look.  All measurements are taken with all tires at 10psi.

Weels straight

FL                FR
135 lbs         75 lbs


RL                RR
63 lbs            127 lbs


Wheels turned Left

168 lbs            48 lbs

51 lbs              138 lbs


Tire Circumference

39.75"              40"

47.75"              48.5"


Is it possible to have too much pre-load or wedge that will make the chassis handle poorly?  I wanted to get some opinions from you guys before I go changing anything.  Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: fordman21 on July 24, 2009, 11:28:16 pm
I would switch the front tires around, get the tire with more circumference on the left front. Also you could stand to have more stagger in the rear tires. Looking at the corner weights, if all the tires have 10lbs in them, there's nothing really there that should make your machine push........what happens when your sitting on the machine?
Maybe have to take another look at the front end set up.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 24, 2009, 11:51:28 pm
When I am on the tractor the weights are still transfering like they are without me on it.  I can add more wedge into the chassis but I didn't know if you can have too much and actually hurt the handling.  I did go through the front end again and squared everything up.  I am now running 1/4" toe.  the tractor seems to be handling good on my track but that always seems to change once I get to the race track.  I have been trying to add more stagger into the rear tires by adding about 30 psi to the right rear and just letting it sit when im not racing.  Is there a better way to do this?  When im racing I usually run 20psi in the right rear and 5 in the left rear so the stagger does improve a little bit.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe I am going into the corners too hard and not getting on the throttle soon enough to bring the rear end around.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on July 25, 2009, 12:15:32 am
How rigid is your chassis? You may have too much chassis flex, which would hinder you in the corners. As Ryan said check your weights with you on the machine. If chassis flex's too much, you can't unload the left rear wheel.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on July 25, 2009, 11:03:58 am
Ty,  the chassis ir pretty rigid.  there is quite a bit of reinforcements on the frame.  The left rear is unloading for sure.  that tire is at least an inch off the ground on the corners.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Ty on July 25, 2009, 12:20:06 pm
Hmmmm, then by rights it should go thru the corners. :lol:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: jerb on July 26, 2009, 04:32:29 am
having that left rear tire off the ground by an inch, that is too much!! you want the weight off of it, but not way off the ground, at least not by an inch! i have set my caster angle on my front end to where it picked the left rear off the ground like an inch or more, and it did not handle worth a darn, you want to unload the left rear, but not pick it clear off the ground, there is a fine line there, i would say, set it with the driver on the seat, just picks it up enough it will not get enough traction in the corner to push you through the turn, but corner good, mine turns really well, and with me on the mower, it may pick it up 1/8-1/4'' but no more than that!  ;)
i run about 3-4 lbs. in left rear, and 15-20 in right rear!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on August 05, 2009, 03:44:44 pm
So try and take some of the caster out of the front huh?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: nor66 on August 05, 2009, 04:34:51 pm
15 degrees caster is a little aggressive, try changing it to 10 degrees.

You might try changing the camber. I would try 2degrees neg on the right and 2 pos on the left. I realize these are EC spindles and with the KPI you have you shouldn't have to change the camber, but every mower is different.

You have already mentioned it but maybe your going in the corners too hard, you know with all the excitement and everything.
You need to make yourself focus and hit your marks.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Fireman239 on September 11, 2009, 11:32:58 pm
What size are the hiems that you used on your front end. I think that is what they call them. Were your spindle is at on the front end. Also where did you get them? Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 12, 2009, 11:05:39 am
I used 1/2" heims.  I got them through midwest control products.  You can get them through almost any kart shop though.  Some people opt to use 5/8" heims also.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on September 13, 2009, 01:38:56 am
I get heims through McMaster Carr...good parts and good prices!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on September 13, 2009, 07:24:44 am
having that left rear tire off the ground by an inch, that is too much!! you want the weight off of it, but not way off the ground, at least not by an inch! i have set my caster angle on my front end to where it picked the left rear off the ground like an inch or more, and it did not handle worth a darn, you want to unload the left rear, but not pick it clear off the ground, there is a fine line there, i would say, set it with the driver on the seat, just picks it up enough it will not get enough traction in the corner to push you through the turn, but corner good, mine turns really well, and with me on the mower, it may pick it up 1/8-1/4'' but no more than that!  ;)
i run about 3-4 lbs. in left rear, and 15-20 in right rear!

Ever watch my twin going into a corner, my left rear is generally about an inch off the ground when its dead on, But thats my prefferance. So its not a bad thing.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on September 19, 2009, 11:29:54 am
hey just curious how that trailtech gauge is working out for ya? thanks
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 20, 2009, 09:51:16 am
the trailtech works great.  the refresh rate is not the fastest for the rpm but all I use is the recall so it really doesn't bother me at all.  the price is right for them and they hav e great customer service.  I would recommend it if you do not want to spend the money on a digi.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: TeamScoot on September 20, 2009, 12:26:16 pm
awesome ill be getting one soon then. does the temp sensor and speedo work pretty good too?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 21, 2009, 02:50:02 pm
Yes, everything works great.  You will need an extension for the temp sensor wire, and they have different pickups for the speedo so make sure you take a look and see which one will fit your application the best.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: accutune on September 28, 2009, 08:20:28 am
ok i am not so smart about this rod dlipping. i have already lost #1 rod. my engines rod are just like in the book. so wheen you say holes towards the slinger the holes would face away from the cover by the starter?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 28, 2009, 08:30:35 am
Both oil holes in the rods will face towards the oil slinger, so yes away from the rear cover.  You should drill a hole in both rod caps and chanfer them to collect more oil.  You should also chanfer the oil holes that are on the rods as well.  The #1 rod is the common one to go!  Have you checked your oil slinger?  They do wear out and get kind of sloppy which does reduce their ability to sling as much oil.  Next time you have the crank case open, you may want to just replace it anyway.  They are not very expensive at all, and its good insurance.

I do not know where ARC is with the billet rods, but that will help your situation greatly if you want to spend the money on them.

With the mods I talked about above I have never had a rod fail.  I also always kept my motor under 6000 RPM and changed the oil after every race.

Hope that helps!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: accutune on September 28, 2009, 08:46:24 am
that is how i set my engine and the #1  rod locked up. so not sure what to do next. have put new rods in it and crank. the oil holes are done and holes in the rod caps too. i have dons dvd and thought i did what he said.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on September 28, 2009, 09:09:57 am
wow, I really dont know what to tell you.  I have not run into any issues like that, sorry!  I know LC went through a few of these motors too, and then switched to something else.  I do not understand why it seems so hit or miss sometimes.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: accutune on September 28, 2009, 10:03:48 am
it ran great beating a team g engine and was  pulling away then it locked up. just a dnf for me.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: 5thcorps on October 01, 2009, 09:59:41 am
Honestly I can remove the starter with the stock flywheel in place done it a million times. 15 years working on thisstuff ya learn a few short cuts.
Care to share your secret? Arthritis in both hands would appreciate a short cut. ;)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 01, 2009, 10:14:43 am
I a not George, but I would say he either ground a wrench thinner to fit between the flywheel and the block, or had a thinner wrench.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 01, 2009, 10:40:08 am
no don't need to grind a wrench least wise I didn't. remove top shroud one bolt is easy to get to the other slip a wrench in and loosen then slide starter off with bolt in hole of flange. Reinstall in same order.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 01, 2009, 11:31:35 am
I am in the process of some chassis changes for next season.  One of them is rebuilding the front axle beam.  Is the EC axle beam 1" by 2"?  I am using 1.5" by 3" right now and it seems overkill, not to meantion heavy.  What are some other people using? 
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: George Herrin on October 01, 2009, 11:39:04 am
Yes ec axle is 1x2 thats the most common size. Never bent a axle beam and have had some pretty ugly kart wheels.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: 5thcorps on October 01, 2009, 11:54:45 am
Hey Running on empty, How exactly is that carb set up? Are those vents coming out the front? Also what is that black canister with the filter on top?
Looks like an external breather?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 01, 2009, 12:26:23 pm
The two lines coming out of the carb in the front are the bowl vents.  The black canister on the side of my mower is just a catch can, or crank case breather.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on October 01, 2009, 03:32:08 pm
Both oil holes in the rods will face towards the oil slinger, so yes away from the rear cover.  You should drill a hole in both rod caps and chanfer them to collect more oil.  You should also chanfer the oil holes that are on the rods as well.  The #1 rod is the common one to go!  Have you checked your oil slinger?  They do wear out and get kind of sloppy which does reduce their ability to sling as much oil.  Next time you have the crank case open, you may want to just replace it anyway.  They are not very expensive at all, and its good insurance.

I do not know where ARC is with the billet rods, but that will help your situation greatly if you want to spend the money on them.

With the mods I talked about above I have never had a rod fail.  I also always kept my motor under 6000 RPM and changed the oil after every race.

Hope that helps!

OK, I have been called "the opposed guru" a few times, and asked "what's your secret" many as well.
I am no guru, and I will let every one in on all of my secrets! Read this, they are all in there. Well almost all at least. As far as keeping the rods in one.

But here is my #1 secret, READ! I have read, and paid attention to those who are making these engines do something. The kid that had one post that said he ran his first race today, then 2 days later claimed his opposed runs great at 7500 RPM and he has never had a problem...I didn't listen so much to him!
Like I said I am not any kind of Guru, I just pay attention to what people say, what they do, how they do it, why they do it and how they do at the track with it! Final note, if someone cannot explain why they are doing something, well then....????
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: accutune on October 02, 2009, 08:19:12 am
well  my engine all stock except for the oil mods, crank case holes and flow mods per dons video and i have a problem with the rod locking on the crank. my engine wont even turn 6000 rpms not that  i try. so rooster is he right  about  the way the rods go?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on October 03, 2009, 12:36:11 am
Yes..
I too cannot figure why some guys get them to work and some blow up?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: GTX21 on October 03, 2009, 09:41:44 am
well  my engine all stock except for the oil mods, crank case holes and flow mods per dons video and i have a problem with the rod locking on the crank. my engine wont even turn 6000 rpms not that  i try. so rooster is he right  about  the way the rods go?
Well yes the top rod goes the opposite of what the book says, Don even says this in his dvd.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 03, 2009, 10:42:11 am
That statement is not 100% true GTX21.  Read through my post on here, I believe page 21, and I have pictures from the book.

Bottome line.  Both oil hole need to be chamfered and facing the oil slinger.  Oil slinger should be replaced on a new build.  Real cheap insurance.  Also, make sure you mic you crank journals.  I have 3 cranks that were outside the specs!  Maybe that is a point of failure in some of the motors people are blowing up.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: GTX21 on October 03, 2009, 11:05:20 am
Do you happen to know the journal specs? (42 crank)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 03, 2009, 11:28:43 am
Not off the top of my head, but they are in the book.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: GTX21 on October 03, 2009, 03:56:33 pm
I dont got the book, :oops: Would they happen to be in the pdf manual or online somewhere?
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 03, 2009, 10:30:37 pm
Nope.  If you are serious about building these motors I would really recommend you pop the $20 and get a book.  It has a lot of info including torques you are going to need to know.  I would not go guessing on torques for rod bolts, head bolts and things like that.  I am not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to point you in the right direction!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: GTX21 on October 03, 2009, 10:58:49 pm
Nope.  If you are serious about building these motors I would really recommend you pop the $20 and get a book.  It has a lot of info including torques you are going to need to know.  I would not go guessing on torques for rod bolts, head bolts and things like that.  I am not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to point you in the right direction!
Oh no im not guessing on the torque specs, i got them off the briggs site
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 03, 2009, 11:01:16 pm
I didnt think the Briggs site had torque specs.  Maybe I have been looking in the wrong place all this time!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: GTX21 on October 03, 2009, 11:18:11 pm
yea ill give link

http://www4.briggsandstratton.com/miscpdfs/RNT/Engine%20Specifications%20Chart_ms3992.pdf            Thtas it

It has its own section, just zoom in and scroll down, its a pdf
I just took a quick glance of it, and it does have the journal dia on it, they are 1.376            Funny that when i mesured mine the bottom one was a tad small. Probley from wear and tare tho.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 03, 2009, 11:20:53 pm
I never saw that before.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: GTX21 on October 03, 2009, 11:38:45 pm
Yep, the only problem is, is that briggs hides it like they dont want you to find them. :bash:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on October 09, 2009, 06:47:48 pm
I made some changes to my chassis for next season.  I learned a lot racing this year.  Most of all I learned that if you dont have a chassis that handles like it is on rails, no motor in the world is gonna save your behind!

Got the rear end lower to eliminate the rake I had in my chassis.  Also rebuilt my seat pan mounts, and got the pan lower.
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2502.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2502.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2504.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2504.jpg)

New front axle mounted in the correct location with built in caster.
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2519-1.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2519-1.jpg)

New lower steering shaft
(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2517-1.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2517-1.jpg)

Added a U-joint to the steering system to get the shaft arl to swin paralle with the chassis.  Also got rid of all of the spherical bushing I had on the steering shaft and replaced them with ball bearings.  Now the entire steering system is on bearings and what a difference it makes!

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2518-1.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2518-1.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2520-1.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2520-1.jpg)

Here is the final product!  Just needs to get primed and painted to cover up all the modifications.

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2507.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2507.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2521-1.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2521-1.jpg)

Now it is time to start working on the motor for next season.......................
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Rooster on October 10, 2009, 12:54:51 am
Looking Good
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 25, 2010, 10:29:44 pm
My new IMOW motor!~~

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2619.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2619.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2620.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2620.jpg)

(http://i363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/th_100_2621.jpg) (http://s363.photobucket.com/albums/oo76/timmer383/?action=view&current=100_2621.jpg)
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Caudy155 on March 25, 2010, 10:34:08 pm
man thats a nice looking mowchine! i havent seen very many of those tractors... how much do you have in your motor for imow? just curious
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 25, 2010, 10:56:19 pm
I was just kidding, it is not an IMOW motor.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Caudy155 on March 25, 2010, 10:58:30 pm
lol my bad... i should have paid more attention...  :noplease: but all jokes aside... nice ride man... looks great
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: birdman_express on March 25, 2010, 11:00:13 pm
I was just kidding, it is not an IMOW motor.

That flywheel kinda gave it away... LOL
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Tony Loveless on March 25, 2010, 11:06:16 pm
 :lol:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Caudy155 on March 26, 2010, 09:48:29 am
ok guys i made a mistake... didnt pay as much attention as i should have... shame on me...  :noplease:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: redline on March 26, 2010, 01:33:54 pm
Hmm, it looks faster than the last time I saw it... :lol:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on March 26, 2010, 06:56:44 pm
ok guys i made a mistake... didnt pay as much attention as i should have... shame on me...  :noplease:

Dont worry about it!

Hmm, it looks faster than the last time I saw it... :lol:

Just got done testing it.  It sure is a lot faster!  Holy Crap!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Tony Loveless on March 26, 2010, 08:17:28 pm
ok guys i made a mistake... didnt pay as much attention as i should have... shame on me...  :noplease:
Yea man,  Happens to the best of us.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 08, 2010, 06:53:31 pm
lol my bad... i should have paid more attention...  :noplease: but all jokes aside... nice ride man... looks great

Thanks man!
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Fireman239 on May 09, 2010, 11:30:38 pm
New to all this,  just curious what size motor is that? Thanks  :woo: :woo:
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Running on Empty on May 10, 2010, 08:04:51 am
It is a 28ci OHV.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Fireman239 on May 30, 2010, 11:38:21 pm
Sorry but what HP is that. Also I have seen several guys talk about 28,31,40,44 ci what are these in HP. Thanks sorry if this is a dumb question I am new to all this.
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: The Tank on May 30, 2010, 11:44:28 pm
Most 28s are 12 to 16 horse
Title: Re: Rookie Build - Gilson
Post by: Fireman239 on June 02, 2010, 12:06:41 am
Thanks,Tank