Heymow - Lawnmower Racing Forum
Engine Help => Briggs OHV & Vanguard => Topic started by: larry crouch on January 06, 2008, 03:25:18 pm
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George, Don, Just took a 44CID Intek apart and the pistons were cupped
downward like a 35 or 38.5 Vanguard. Does Briggs make a flat top or domed piston for these? Also cut heads to around .0080 is that enough
considering the heads are open chambered and not closed?
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Briggs doesn't make a flat top. NOW what we need is a longer rod and we can cut the pistoon as we do with the Vanguard (hint hint TOM). Course one can always go to Wiesco or some high end piston manufacturer and have custoom pistons made. We are building a 44 at EC and its heads are cut more than .080. Its a customer motor so I cannot reveal the exact amount.
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You can get the piston with no wrist pin holes, but you have to be perfect when you get them machined. Ronnie from Cheraw S. C. builds motors for a multitude
of racers in all kinds of racing gave me the company's name but I'm not sure if i'm smart enough to to get the pin in the right place.
Since I opened this can, if you cut the heads more than a 100 do you change push rods because of the rocker angle. Performance V-twins say's you need to. I'm a little out of my league when it comes to rocker angle. Anyway you have so much room in the heads for shaving who knows when it's enough.
I think you could make it a closed chamber with a little fill in by a good welded.
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When one shaves an OHV yea rocker geometry is an issue. And to correct that yes it requires shortning the push rods. With the intek or any other V-twin the bigger issue with shaving heads is still getting the intake to fit correctly. Keep that in mind. Also understand compression by shaving heads is not the key to making horsepower. FLOW is where its at in heads the carb, and the exhaust.
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Ok Here is my question. Why?
I mean all I read is Flow flow flow. Then I hear shave heads .020 to .150 on all the Briggs motors out there.
So what gives?
If the piston is dished so what?
I am not being mean here but I am so comfused. I watched the Stabil finals last night again. I watch the BP class and watch Robert Sparbel finish 8th. No biggy right.
I also know I finish 6th in Mendota IL last year too. So................
It is not that my motors are not fast. It is not the chassis either. Sometimes it just comes down to the start and when you start 15 or lower and end the race 6th or 8th that means something too right?
What I am getting at is that is with Inteks with the Heads NOT shaved. 8:1 motors running with all these guys that cut and cut again.
This is with a 90% stock motor. No valve changes and nothing wild.
Simply a good strong build.
There is much to talk about the swirl that happens in the cylinder and there is Vortec ideas and all too. Snowmobile guys know alot about this too. The sqwish if the fuel and air is very important and how it is done is important too.
Knowing sqwish and how it works can yeild much mower then shave shave shave ever will.
So what I am reading is this. If I shave my heads I will be #1??? Why is it always come down to one or two things will kick someone's grass??
Again sorry that this message sounds a bit off. I am a bit crabby this morning and mostly just confused. It is not that I don't know what the answers are I just don't understand how folks come up with what is the winning thing.
Again Sorry
Don
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Its all about finding the right Combonation!!!! It takes a complete package not a single thing!!!
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Don, I'm not sure how you took the questions that I have asked about the 44CID Intek but in no way was anything pointed toward you or your engines. I ran a 40CID Intek this past season and was pleased with the outcome. I would say 90% of the guys at Ellerbe that run in the class we do run
Inteks. The deal is I broke a crankshaft the last race of the season in Georges race in Tenn. It ruined the block. I have purchased a 44CID that I'm going to build for 08, hince the questions. If I'm going to
spend $2,000 in an engine and extra $100 in head work is a small price to pay while the engine is apart.
As far as the pistons, we cut them to flatten them out on Vanguards so I assumed you would try to
do the same thing with an Intek.
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That is interesting to hear that the crank broke, was it the crankshaft that failed or was there another cause? also where did it brake? thanks, Ryan
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It broke due to dirt ingestion due to the fact it only had a panty hose for an air filter for a whole year. ANd trust me when I tell ya the Crouches twist a motor for everything they worth. LOL But ya gotta love em.
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Hey Don,
Good points you make but let's not leave out the very first time my BP hit the track at the National race in Morris MN. In the heat I finished 2nd right behind Jayson Mikula and in the Feature I finished 3rd right behind Jim and Jayson Mikula. I know 1st is where everyone wants to be but I would say that is a darn good showing for a motors first night on the track. As for Ohio I think I started 15th or 16th and worked my way to 8th, for having 20 BP's on the start grid I can't complain about that either...
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Hey Larry,
Nothing bad taken nothing bad ment.
What RPMS do you think you need to turn? What were you turning when it broke?
$135 gets head work from me. Shave the heads a little and spring and retainers and keepers and port work.
No need for anything else. Heads, cam and carb work I do turn to 7,200 rpm with tons of power all the way there. I hit 8,080 rpms on some missed shifts with no damage.
Sure there is more a guy can do to any motor but the basic question is why? Why does everyone think 1,500 to 7,200 rpms is not good enough? Briggs balanced cranks in twins are good for 6,000 generally and anything above will weaken them.
Same goes with the singles. I balance them to 6,000 rpms also. Most guys turning way above that all the time will break them.
So goes it with Automotive motors too. Crazy Harmonics happen to all motors above 6,300 rpms.
Again not mad or whatever. Not trying to :censored: things up a bit either.
You have to understand I watch the races on TV and I watch the races at the track and I watch what folks do with motors and their finish too. Why better feed back then a dyno this is. This is real world feed back.
Just wondering..........................................
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I agree with George it takes the whole combo & differant combinations work for differant people & no two will be the same.It's hard to build two alike & they turn out the same.As for a dyno there great for tuning,trying differant combos & even breaking one in but I have yet had one to pass me on the track.These drivers got to understand it's not all motor,it takes good driving,good set up & even some luck helps.Yeah a good motor helps with all that,but I've seen good motors on poorly set up mowers & they ran last,karts too.It seems like everybody wants to know how much hoss power you can get with them on the dyno & again dynos are not the same I use a hydrolic & an inertia one that even shows torque.Well thats my 2 cents worth.
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Anyone wondering what sqwish is, can search google for "quench". Probably have to add piston or cylinder to the search words. With long rods and shaved pistons my vanny has quenched it's need for quench.
And what about Velocity, need a little of that to go with the Flow :)
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Don't complicate it too much I might get confused. :doh: >:D
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.. the quench squished the mixture..
ok I'm done.
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Guys thanks for all of the responces! I still think Horse power helps even on a bad handling chasis.
Thats my opinion. On the head issue, if compression does not help H.P. and I understand the flow part
why the closed chambers and open chambered heads and even the cupped pistons versus the domed topped pistons on any engine. Just curious!
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Oh now I am really confused. LOL
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Welcome to the confused department George,I don't think he's talking about anyone engine in general more like some of them all.Flat heads are the ones that don't need a lot of compresson,overhead valves differant story.Building compression in a flat head restricts flow flow flow.Now I'm getting confused. LOL
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I know what to do.. I think I thought I thunk I do. !!!
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pretty much goes back to the original question, how much to cut the heads for optimum power. Guys I know this is not a canned answer but this has been an enlightning thread.
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Ok how about this..leave the chambers open so that the valves are not shrouded for good flow,and deck the block to get the pistons to stick out,then shave the pistons to get the clearance you want.It shouldent make any difference weather you shave the heads or deck the block you may still have to do some work to get the intake to fit.But open chamber heads do flow better.
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Remember this. As thin as top ring land is whatever you do either romve the top ring completely or you will have an end result you don't like like. Shaving the piston any at all w/o romoving that top land ends with the land breaking off and now ya got pieces floating around. Thats why if ya gonna flat top the pistons do it enough to remove the top ring This is on the INTEK 44 cube pistons. Already found out the hard way. I told a Cust. it wouldn't last he said do it and it didn't. Wasn't pretty.
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OMG you guys are working to hard at this. Shave and deck and bla bla bla.
Hello Air Cooled Engine!!!!! Poor Heat Dissapation!!!!
Oh and one more thing. Poor handling mowers just suck. It is NOT about HP. NO motor on the planet will help a poor handling mower.
Jeez guys go back in the day. When George raced a Stock Vanny with Nothing going on and still raced top dogs in the USLMRA.
Why did he do so good??? Come one someone must know G from back in the day and have Video like I do???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
George's mowers HANDLE!!!! That makes him fast!!!! HEllo :doh:
If your chassis is Fast you don't need a Fast motor. BUT they both work well together.
Also to back up what was said earlier. NO ONE PART makes a motor fast. It is a series of parts and mods that make a motor fast.
My Inteks have 2 years of R&D on them and it is still moving on. I do not do bigger valves and many other spendy parts.
Simple build for simple HP and Torque.
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It sounds like you are getting upset because of differing opinions of handling and H.P. I agree an ill handling anything that races sucks. But you can not
convience me that H.P. is not important. If not you would not have 2 years
of R&D on an Intek engine. I know I sound like an agitator but thats not my purpose. We, by that I mean my son and my brothers work on what we think
will help us go faster or handle better and maybe win a race or two. Yes, I and my family watched George drive in Tenn. and he is the best Mower racer I've seen, but he had H.P. to back it up.
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Not exciting me at all.
I have seen G Race too. Back in the day when he had NO HP but was fast. Now he is a bit faster.
But as G has said many times driver and handling are 2/3rds of the pie. HP is the other 1/3rd.
Go ahead with $$ and Ideas. No one is stopping you. But I am on a limited budget even if I have a store and find it hard to spend in areas I see little to no bennies for a faster mower all around.
Good Luck
Don
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Alright guys what i think don is trying to say is that if he doesn't do all the mods you are talking about then there must be reason behind it. It must not be enough of a gain to even worry about over your competitors or else many other people would have already tried it. Trust me if it coming from a guy like don then id sure as heck believe him and i don't even personally know him and i believe him. The man is wise people believe him. Yes a combination of everything will make a motor RUN but not for the price of some stuff and what little it will do for your engine or won't do. Also if u don't have a GOOD chassis then no motor in the world will help you. If u cant turn it into the corners were you gonna nowhere but to the back of the line. If you cant steer the dang thing then your not gonna get into the gas very hard there fore your not gonna use you high power motor. Thats why many people need to listen to other people who have knowledge on this kinda stuff and you might just get a winning setup.
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Brunson man where did you come from with that. Its about listening to everyone taking everything into consideration and then making your own judgements. Understand Larry and all his family are all driving chassis designed by me. They have made many many phone calls to me questioning chassis setup and what not. The have GOOD chassis I know I raced with them. Now they want motor to go along with that chassis. While Don builds a good motor (I know I have raced them to) the Crouchs want more. Nothing wrong with that, so they are asking questions on how to go that extra step farther. While some mods make small gains those small gains all add up. Adding up enough small gains makes for a big gain eventually. So in the end While you say you don't know any of the parties I know all the parties, no one is cutting no one down they are simply asking questions and giving there reasons for there answers. And yes the intek has more power to gain. Its a matter of figuring out how to squeeze it out. And from a man who knows, I would rather have too much motor than not enough. I can manage too much I cannot get more when I need it if I ain't got it. Remember that... Thanks for your input.
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Are there teflon coated, standard bore, pistons/rings available for the 44? If so, would you have the part numbers? Thank you.
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They are available. There is a "break" in production of these which determines the correct piston/ring combination. Code number is needed for your engine. I have two new sets in my shop waiting for parts to come back for my engine build.
Doc
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The engine code is: 070122Y6
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Sorry, but need actual model and type number as well.
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Model: 445877
Type: 0829 E1
Code: 070122 YG
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Here ya go
:censored: part no 793560 - std bore piston/ring set
DOc
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Thank you. I appreciate that very much.
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Who is this Flow gal....is she the one runnin around without her pantie hose? I like a gal willin to donate it for the cause.
Larry..Get a breather man.
so in the midst, did we decide wether flow,velocity, compression, quench, squish or pantie hose are more important.
& we haven't talked flame front yet???
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Here we go again.
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larry just wondered how the 44CID Intek build went this winter. have you run it yet was alot of debate just wondered.
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Not too bad. 2 seconds and 2 thirds. Engine runs great. Everyone at Ellerbe in our class is flying. We
have also raced at Cyclone and at Waynes track in Whiteville. The Intek is a good engine but still from
what Ive seen sluggish off of the corners compared to the Vanguard.
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thats good to hear. sounds like where you race the pack has closed in. now the difference will be who does the real small special details. glad to hear your up and running. good luck this summer
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Larry, this is Mike R again. You may already have your pistons but J & E has made me some forged flat top pistons for a 40 and all I would have to do is to tell them the bore size for the 44 and they can make a flat top because the compression height and wrist pin location are in the same spot if you want to run the stock rod length. You asked the guys how much you can cut the heads. What I have done that seemed to work is to check your piston to valve clearance and see what you have and you need at least .05 minimum. Then take how much you have from 50 then cut away. Compression does build horsepower but so does porting for added air flow. I have been building motors all my life and I have ported and flowed heads about one too many but I love building horsepower. Give me a call if I can help you in any way.
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hello i got on haymow i was reading these post about the 44ci. i have a 44ci it is stock some head work.it has flat top pistons. it is stock what up with that ? did some come with flat top : :confused: spark58
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I've never heard of a 44 with flat top pistons,but then again I have been wrong before.
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i went out to the shop to check on those piston it is a 44ci intec it was a gen motor may have made to run off lp gas i have run this motor 4 years racing needs to be redone was thinking about boring and cam.can i get 30over flat top? spark 58
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NO .030 Briggs only makes standard and .020 pistons IF you find .030 its simply some that are left on a shelf somewhere good luck.
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so how has everyone being doing thats runnign the 44inteks so far can any run with the Indian or The Kawi.
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I have one that has beat a few Indians.
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Excuse me, a few!!! once or twice maybe 1 LOL. I didn't want to discourage you LOL... I could resist that!!!
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LOL I am pretty sure it was twice. But I have race another in NC that I beat. So instead of a few it should be a couple Indian just beat them multiple time. LOL
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Hey everyone gets lucky once in awhile. LOL
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Yep you sure did! The couple times you won. LOL :lol:
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Now thats FUNNY!!!!
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can you bore the 40cid to take the stock size 44 cube piston?
The only difference between a 40 and a 44 is the bore right? no stroke or rod length diference?
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My 44 runs with the indians. I watch George run past me all the time......... George, Since I run a lower rpm than most, is there a cam avalable to work with the lower rpm's?
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Yes but the Intek responds better to the higher lift cams.
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Do I just need a higher lift, or do I need a longer duration too? :bash: I have to explane this to my sponsor "aka" Mrsracingjohndeere55 :3gears: I found out if I get real technical she just kinda looks at me and says "ok"
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cALL mIKE AT PRECISION AND GET THE SPECS ON THE CHEETAH GRIND THE INTEKS LIKE THAT CAM
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I will do that, Thank ya :)
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G'day Everyone,
I’m peter from Australia, mower racing is taking off here and the races are really competitive, I have a Briggs 40ci 22hp els engine, all I have done is taken the governor off and put a air pod on, and exhaust and that’s about it. I want to get a bit more hp without spending an arm or a leg. Postage is a bit to Aust... what would be the next thing that I could modify get more power.? valves?
Cheers guys any help would be good,
Oh and we are thinking of holding an international mower race event in Australia in the next year or so, it would be great to meet George Herrin and the rest of the crew. We have excellent facilities, clay tracks, hopefully it happens in the near future cheers pete.
;)
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Hey George, Now ya gotta learn to race backwards. The aussies if I'm not mistaken run clockwise around the track. Think ya can handle making right turns????? I dont know if the ol' family van will make it down under.......? maybe ol'goat can pick ya up on the way. Peter, good to have you here.
Read over the posts, there are alot of tricks that can be done cheaply in house. Or if you want to buy horse power, EC distibuting, ARC, Precision cams, just to name a few.
By the way George, Mike is gonna cut me the special " your gonna beat George with this cam" grind >:D Thank you
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I told him to cut it for ya that way when I beat ya ya got no excuses. LOL
MAN that would be the BEST race in the world in Aussie. I have always wanted to go there. Heck I will just add wings to the twin and fly it over.
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:lol2: now thats funny :rofl:
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:bow: .............. SUPERMAN on a MTD with wings ................ :weefly:
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Add wings hey...lol us Aussies have a different set up than u guys, we run 90 degree box drives to a fixed axel, plenty of sideways fun, and we just change the gearing to suit the track, There are other mowers clubs in Aus that run motor bike engines but we had the Aus nationals in July and all of the mower engine races flogged them because of the torque. We race anti clockwise..lol and we use knobby tyres for the best traction check out our Australian nations vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEDe8eN4xy4
It would be good to organize a world title mower racing championship in the near future. im sure we can organize sponsors to get u guys over. maybe include the British as well. lol
;) ;)
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I stand corrected :doh: They do run the same direction we do. Want to make a lawnmower racer whine over here? Put in a hard right hand turn.
We do use 90 degree gear boxes in our Pro-X class. Everything else has to have a shiftable tranny in it.
Whatchya think George??? Add World Champ to your resume? :bow: :woohoo:
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If George left Tennessee with enough gear, by the time he hit the tip of florida he could just skip across the pond a few times and be there!
Like he needs wings to fly? I could loan you a set.
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Like he needs wings to fly? I could loan you a set.
Why your WINGS fall off ? Roosterlew
[Rooster :// {Alice in chains} ]
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Really guys??,
Think about...we all know Indians can't fly. Remember Geronimo(w) ????
Doc
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Hey George, can I run the stock springs with this cam Im gettin? I dont have the money right now for the pushrods, roller rockers.
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Why your WINGS fall off ? Roosterlew
[Rooster :// {Alice in chains} ]
LolReally guys??,
Think about...we all know Indians can't fly. Remember Geronimo(w) ????
Doc
Lol lol
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Hey George, can I run the stock springs with this cam Im gettin? I dont have the money right now for the pushrods, roller rockers.
You atleast need the springs and retainers. Steel pushrods on both sides and rockers will do for awhile.
Don't tell my Indian it cannot fly. It doesn't know any different.
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Ok, what springs do I use?
EC dual springs #260 and retainers #263 2 ea.
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if you run the double spring with stock rockers, you will break them. i did today only turnin the motor 6800rpm
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Never said you wouldn't Stock rockers will break ya just never know when...
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iam so glad i got afew set lol but iam saving for the rollers
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I want to find a 2bbl carb for my 44ci. Does anyone have the Walbro part #?
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didn't know walbro made a two barrel
I have a couple two barrel intek carbs (stock) 60.00 ea
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didn't know walbro made a two barrel
I have a couple two barrel intek carbs (stock) 60.00 ea
Like this one but stock right? http://www.eccarburetors.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=940
I have the Nikki but looking for a Different one, The one I have has the double tube pick up and I just don't see me liking it.
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You need the black single pick up it can be made adjustable. That picture is a tikki carb it is the new model vanny carb will work on the intek also all fixed jet.
I will look and see if mine are the white double or the black single.
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Thanks George. If you have a single tube I'd take it! Also did you find out if EC can O-Ring a motor?
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I run an Intek on my super sportsman and replaced the factory carb with a tikki carb .......... it responds alot better than the stock carb plus you have idle mixture screws and removeable jets for fine tuning on your jetting :thumbsup:
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I run an Intek on my super sportsman and replaced the factory carb with a tikki carb .......... it responds alot better than the stock carb plus you have idle mixture screws and removeable jets for fine tuning on your jetting :thumbsup:
Is there a briggs part number for that Carb?
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I'll see what i can find ;)
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look up vanny carb and you will get a tikki they don't make the nikki any more
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How do ya tell the diffrence ???
Does the Nikki have Removeable jets and the Tikki not ???
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they both have them, (vanny carbs) that is. And it says either nikki or tikki on them.
The intek carb is just a wanna be but with the right work does a good job. Then you can do like JED go BIG with a big bore carb then the INTEK comes alive. Stock about 165.00.
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What about performance wise ........ witch is better to have ?? or does it matter.
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ALL are good if built right big bore if you got the dollars built there is nothing that compares to it.
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Good morning guys! I just read this thread again and it made me laugh. After two years it is amazing
how many gains have been made with the Intek engine. The parts are easy to find, carbs are bigger
and better, head and valve work has improved, Mike and others have improved their cams and the chasis
have changed for the better. You can even get flat topped pistons. LOL!!!! I do not think anyone who
was running an Intek 2 years ago have not gained a lot of speed. I know in Ellerbe everyone is a lot faster. Gurney and his family are flying, Drew has oodles of HP, Jeff and Russel are running just to mention a few. This should be an interesting year. Just a few thoughts from an old racer.
PS Any tips for more HP will be welcomed!!!!!!!!!!!!
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If EC can't o-ring a block I can do the block or head.Really don't know why ya would need too though.
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That Intek on Barry's Super Sportsman sure is flyin LOL ....... I could'nt get that thing ta turn any higher than 5900 RPM last year . I did some EXTENSIVE head work and added a vanny 2 barrel , and i turn it 7800 RPM every lap . The power diffrence is simply amazing ........... there is alot of HP in the heads. In my opinion you could'nt pay me to run anything else , and the the parts like larry said are everywhere.
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Mike i'm still working on heads, valves etc. but I want to try the 49 cube engine. I bored my 44 last
year to almost 48 and was bad fast for 23 laps in a 25 lap race. Built another 44 for the rest of
the season. My 48 was in several pieces. Brother Rex is staying with the Vanguard and they have a
lot of sucess but I still think the Intek is the way to go. Also I like the Intek carb better, might be
cause I know how to work on them! The new big bore Vanguard should be a HOSS!
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How much does the good vanguard carbs run?
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The BIG BORE is 478.00 flowed and blue printed fully race ready.
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Lol how about a stock one?
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Mike i'm still working on heads, valves etc. but I want to try the 49 cube engine. I bored my 44 last
year to almost 48 and was bad fast for 23 laps in a 25 lap race. Built another 44 for the rest of
the season. My 48 was in several pieces. Brother Rex is staying with the Vanguard and they have a
lot of sucess but I still think the Intek is the way to go. Also I like the Intek carb better, might be
cause I know how to work on them! The new big bore Vanguard should be a HOSS!
I'm lookin ta buy one of the new 50 cube intek setups ..... i think the intek is on of those "best kept secret" type things
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do u need the govner grear or can u take it out
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TAKE IT OUT
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George,
Do they make a stroker rod for the intek? if so, where do you get it from?
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George,
Do they make a stroker rod for the intek? if so, where do you get it from?
http://ronsrocketparts.com/connectingrods2.html
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ARC only makes a standard length rod. As posted above Ron makes a longer rod but they must use the cv pistons and thats roughly 150.00 per hole. Not counting the rods.
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two rod's two piston's 450.00
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what head work are you guys talking about," Themowchanic" when you say you did extensive head work and now you turn 7800 rpms, alot of porting and flowing?? im thinkin about buying a intek 44ci so i need to start learning thanks
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The heads on the 44 CI intek i did ............ they have been ported and polished , 5 angle valve job , oversize stainless intake valves , ferrah bronze guides , cut .150 , and angle milled . The valves , seats , and guides come from Ferrah Valvetrain Parts and are made for a Satrun engine LOL ................... WELL worth the money.
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angle milled? what do you angle? just curious.. the head to block surface or the intake manifold surface?
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The cylinder head surface ....... it changes the valve angle to get it perfectly paralell with the cylinder. But you also have to cut the intake surface to make up for the angle changes.
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i see...
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where did you get your oversized valves at thanks
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where did you get your oversized valves at thanks
:D I'm wondering the same thing
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The valves , seats , and guides come from Ferrah Valvetrain Parts and are made for a Satrun engine
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To answer our question Zach
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Like a couple others here, Has anyone found the part number for flat top 44 pistons from briggs? Or do they even exist?
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My buddy has a new set of 44 intek pistons I don't know much about inteks but these pistons are flat top. Ill look and see if I can get the part number.
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Thanks Bobby!
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Mine is a 445777 and they are flat tops
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Mine is a 445777 and they are flat tops
What are the type and code?
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I will post itthis afternoon when I get home I may even have a picture somewhere
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lay a flat edge across them j bet you find a slight dish in them.
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George was right its very slight dish in the center. :bash: but pretty close to flat top compared to a kohler
Don't know if it matters anymore but here it is
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I have access to any briggs part and we have bought alot of them looking for an advantage. The only true flast top intek piston were the 40 cube inteks.
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Yea I have the odd ball 44 with the 5/8" Cam journal I thought it may be different
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Yea I have the odd ball 44 with the 5/8" Cam journal I thought it may be different
Less work on the Intek 40 cam to get it to fit.
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Yea I have a 2nd hand spoke Cam that I'm running bronze bushings they work for now
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so I there anything going on new that anyone would like to share. I am building a 44 ci for this upcoming year. I am going to do a full build and any pointers would be great.
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Go with rocket Ron rods and pistons. He's got the longer rod. and with the flat top je pistons. Great combo.
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I will looking into that thanks. what size exhaust pipes is everyone using. I am planning on using 1 1/4 into a collector would going any bigger really be needed?
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does anyone have a easy way to remove the intake valve stem seal? Manual shows using a pliers but I cant get either one to budge. The are pressed down to the head base so I cant get something under it to pry it.
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Never mind got them off with pliers and a lot of elbow grease!