Heymow - Lawnmower Racing Forum
General => Coffee Shop => Topic started by: more4les on June 01, 2015, 12:02:10 pm
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Just for thought. What is considered internal or external? One could argue that behind the shroud is internal. It is inside the outer casing of the engine as delivered. I'm asking because we might have a potential problem within our club on this subject. I don't want to get into specifics but mods done under the covers and shrouds....internal? Also any alteration to a shroud considered external modifications? Removing a shroud considered external modification?
>OPEN THE HORNET'S NEST<
Lester
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No offense but taking shroud off sounds like a safty hazard. Safty first not to mention a over heating problem.
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Don't think that's what he's talking about. I would say Lester is thinking about intake manifolds. And I have never seen a definitive answer on it.
Bert
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My opinion is if you can see it then it's an external modification.
If it takes away the appearance of a stock looking configuration then it's a external modification.
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What about externally vented carbs and plugged governor shaft holes? Those are visible.
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What about externally vented carbs and plugged governor shaft holes? Those are visible.
Ok Ed strike line one that I wrote and go to line Two.
I new someone was going to bring those up. You can add after market air cleaner to that mix too.
It's all in the eyes of the tech man and what he or she will allow.
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Mark, just pointing out how much "gray" area there is in this.
If I had my way, it would read original OEM block and cylinder head castings. Period.
Once you start with those, do what you will to them.
Rules state you can change air filter and exhaust. Doesn't say you can trim the cylinder head shrouds to clear the new exhaust, but it's done all the time.
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No problems here Ed. I new exactly what you were doing. And agree with you. I have a Intek head on my bench right now that in no way would pass tech. I did it because I could and wanted to try something different
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How about billet heads that are completely behind a heat shroud?
Lester
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How about billet heads that are completely behind a heat shroud?
Lester
heads are external....period. whats in the heads, that is internal.
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heads are external....period. whats in the heads, that is internal.
Ah but the heads on this particular model are completely behind a heat shield there in making the head internal to the shrouds. I'm 100% with the fact they are an external modification however the point will be made it's internal IF it isn't visible.
Lester
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Sounds like your racing with the wrong crew.
This is suppose to be for fun right???
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heads are external....period. whats in the heads, that is internal.
In total agreement here.
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I HAVE SEEN OHV HEADS THAT THE INTAKE PORT WAS HEAVILY MODIFIED (LOTS OF WELDING). THATS INTERNAL BUT YOU CAN SEE IT, IF YOU LOOK CLOSE ENOUGH. IF THE SIDE OF THE BLOCK HAS A PATCH WELDED ON IT, LIKE A ROD WENT THROUGH IT. MAYBE IT DID AND MAYBE IT DIDN'T. ALL I ASK IS THE RULING IS CONSISTANT!
I DO AGREE WITH ED, START WITH STOCK BLOCK AND HEAD AND GO FROM THERE!
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We run billet drive belts. They slip like crazy but they look rad, yo!
Bert
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Aftermarket heads on a Kohler were deemed illegal by the Uslmra. Whether they were cast or billet. I would say this would be the same ruling. It should not be brand specific. Kohler was descused because the castings were already being made.
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Aftermarket heads on a Kohler were deemed illegal. Whether they were cast or billet. I would say this would be the same ruling. It should not be brand specific. Kohler was descused because the castings were already being made.
Aftermarket or custom billet heads are legal in ARMA in the super mod classes, as they should be in a top of the tier open type class. The prepared classes are a different story and should use oem block, heads, intakes etc.
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What about 2 barrel carbs and intake manifold on Kohler 20 hp v-twins? They never came that way from the factory and looks nothing like the stock single barrel.
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Aftermarket or custom billet heads are legal in ARMA in the super mod classes, as they should be in a top of the tier open type class. The prepared classes are a different story and should use oem block, heads, intakes etc.
And I totally disagree with that and always have...And my reasoning is not open for discussion.
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And I totally disagree with that and always have...And my reasoning is not open for discussion.
Which part George? The allowing of aftermarket heads in SM? OLe do you think allowed across the board? I'm guessing they should never be allowed is your statement.
Lester
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Across the board. And especially the Super Mod classes. One must use OEM Block and Heads. Its not an open class or the rules would say that. Gotta keep the classes within reach. You get to stupid and they will die. WHY because only a hand full would be able to afford it. I fought this tooth n nail back when rules were being made. Talked till I was blue in the face. Thats why my club rules are as they are.
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Across the board. And especially the Super Mod classes. One must use OEM Block and Heads. Its not an open class or the rules would say that. Gotta keep the classes within reach. You get to stupid and they will die. WHY because only a hand full would be able to afford it. I fought this tooth n nail back when rules were being made. Talked till I was blue in the face. Thats why my club rules are as they are.
I AGREE, IF YOU ALLOW ONE OFF BILLETT BLOCKS AND HEADS WHATS NEXT? YOU END UP WITH A HAND GERNADE BETWEEN 4 WHEELS. THE CLASS HAS 5 OR 6 PEOPLE IN IT ALL COMPLAINING ABOUT LAPPERS, THE SAME GUY WINNING ALL THE TIME. JUST LIKE BERT SAID "YOU WANT TO KILL LAWNMOWER RACING, ADD SUSPENSION"! I BELIEVE HIGH END, ONE OFF BILLETT ENGINES WOULD BE A WASTE ON MONEY AND KILL THE CLASS. REALISTICLY YOU COULD BUY A FLOW BENCH AND TIG WELDER [USED ] AND MODIFY HEADS AND BOLCKS AND STILL SAVE MONEY!
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The rules ARMA has now are fine. In the super mod class you must start with an OEM mower block, and the heads can be aftermarket or stock castings. It would actually be cheaper for the serious builders if there were billet heads for the popular engines. Spending a ton of time on stock heads welding up chambers/ ports, installing big valves/ seats, port job, and then flow bench time adds up to a large sum of money very quickly, especially if you are paying a race shop to do it. You could have a much better product, designed for peak performance and reliability with a billet head and the cost would be cheaper if produced in quantity. But in the end only so much power can be put to the ground anyway so its not really even worth the trouble. Spending the extra time on chassis setup and consistent driving will win more races than just a high hp engine anyway. That's been proven over and over.
Al, I do agree that no billet or aftermarket blocks should ever be allowed. The stock blocks will only handle so much and will always limit the classes.
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I think I have proved that a stock head stock block flat tappet motor can run with the best of anything out there on any given day, and do it far more dependable with nowhere near the money. Far more so than those so called high end after market parts being used. And my ports are not welded up and moved and my chambers are not either. Go figure. In fact I can make any motor out their run like mine w/o all that crap. Oh and they live alot longer than those after market parts do too!!! Like I said I disagree with ARMA,s engine rules on the super mod classes. Did from the start argued it from the start and will never agree with it. It is detrimental to the sport!!! And I will always run them high end aftermarket head motors in the ground with my 42 cube oem block n head motor. SO let the P!$$ing contest start. I am done and said my piece.
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Why would anyone be interested in what it costs to run in the supermod- fxt class ? That is what it was for to begin with for the ones that have an unlimited budget. I have heard the quote before that you cant stop the progression of the sport and this is what it is evolving to. Lets just put a hood on a the kart chassis and save some money and have more equality ! :lol: Be carefull what you wish for , you might get more than you ask for
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I want an unlimited budget.
Right now, all I have is a Bert with a bad hip.
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I want an unlimited budget.
Right now, all I have is a Bert with a bad hip.
And a bad back and bad knees. That is why God created beer, the universal pain killer.
Chuck is right, be careful what you ask for. The Supersportsman/BP class is salty enough, but the twin mods are especially so. Nothing personal here, George, but what do the mod classes have in common with a lawn mower? A hood and grill? Maybe the engine? Mower racing is emulating any other pro racing class in America. The tech and the costs are rising far above what the normal racer can afford. And having said that, I don't feel the racing entertainment value has gone up with the money.
Used to be Nascar fans could identify with what was on the track. And that fan, with proper skills, could actually build what was on the track. Same with Indy. Now, as with pro racing, your typical potential mower racing participant has neither the skill, tools or budget to do what we're doing, and it's killing the sport. Participation is down, and it seems venues are getting harder to come by.
We also have way too many classes. I am honestly unable to tell what all the classes are without checking a rule book. There is no upside to this. BUILD TO AN EXISTING CLASS. There is no need to form a new national class simply because "a bunch of our guys locally race (fill in blank here)."
How about 3 classes? Governed, single cylinder prepared and twin cylinder prepared? Increase class participation, and reduce the rule book content by 50%. Keep all the billet stuff out. No homemade frames. Keep everything looking like a lawn mower.
Just my thoughts, right or wrong. I've been racing mowers since 1991, before we had a national association of any kind. I owned a dirt late model for several years before that. I have been a student of racing forever, and I am no longer a Nascar fan nor an Indy car fan. Those series have been ruined by money and technology. And I have rock-rooted opinions based on my experience in mower racing. I don't see a bright future here, either.
My back hurts now, so I am off to medicate.
Bert
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The heads on my FXT are basicly stock heads that were worked to match the recast heads. It would of been much cheaper to start with the recast heads. But I told Zach I wasn't going to be breaking the rules. That is also why the BP engine we built used the stock valve covers and the Kohler carb.
The FX classes aren't cheap to build or run. I remember not to long ago everyone wanted the FX classes to be unlimited. Now we want limits.
Bert I am in the process of working on adding 2 more classes. Just because I think we need them........
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And just for the record, I have fabulous hips. The chicks all tell me so...
Paul, would one of the new classes be based on combines???
Bert
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And just for the record, I have fabulous hips. The chicks all tell me so...
Paul, would one of the new classes be based on combines???
Bert
Combines are to expensive. But Turbo diesels. And propane.
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With nitrous and water injection. Or maybe those could be different classes.
Bert
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Methanol injection will be mandatory. Nitrous strictly banned.
1 governed class to keep it cheap
1 unlimited RPM class.
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And just for the record, I have fabulous hips. The chicks all tell me so..
As on of my old girlfriends once said, you have berthing hips ! :woo: :woo:
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Huh. I think Chuck just called me a fat a**. Thanks, buddy.
Bert
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The FX classes aren't cheap to build or run. I remember not to long ago everyone wanted the FX classes to be unlimited. Now we want limits.
Paul, you are right on the money. The FX classes (super mods) were never meant for rookies, new drivers, or the inexperienced builders. But somehow there are new guys getting right into this class.... The class was added to be an open type class, breaking the mold for the veteran racers and experienced builders. But now guys are trying to make the class "affordable" so everyone can race in it. People should go race a governed class or a prepared class if they are on a tight budget. No one has made anyone build an FX class machine, it's people wanting what they can't have or afford which is the good ol' American way these days!
The future of mower racing will ride on getting families and kids back into racing, and running the tracks and events with no politics. This means enforcing the same rules and regulations on everyone regardless of who you are, track official or president or whatever.
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The future of mower racing will ride on getting families and kids back into racing, and running the tracks and events with no politics. This means enforcing the same rules and regulations on everyone regardless of who you are, track official or president or whatever.
If the rule book says stock appearance exept air filter and exhast,that it!
This is what real Lawnmower racing is about and agree 100% with Tyler.
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I am NOT trying to make the FXT type or SUPER MOD classes affordable. In no way shape or form. I simply stated that the classes engine wise should use only OEM heads and blocks. Period. As for family involvement I agree 100% and that is why we run limited mods. Everyone wants that type chassis and to make it accessible for the families and those with limited funds we run limiteds. But I still stand behind my first statement oem heads and blocks. Anything else goes.
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Bert, I agree with you. I also quit watching NASCAR, and almost all the Indy car series (except the 500) and don't miss it. I still enjoy motocross and NHRA. The fuel cars have always been out of reach of the everyday person and the one off stuff it cool.
Are we growing to fast, time will tell. I really hope not I like this sport way to much and would like to have to decide on where to race on Sunday's because there are several tracks to decide from. Unfortunately I am still having trouble finding one when my time allows. 4 or 5 years ago there was choices, not anymore.
I can see different cast heads being less than highly modifying stockers. Only for the top classes. I guess we will always have someone that will come in with a open check book.
Has anyone else ever noticed nobody ever listens. What I mean is we all talk and it seems to make good sense. I never see anything come of it, or is that just me, Kinda frustrating.
Bert drink a beer ( or a couple) for me , since my doctors all said stop. Although I would drink one with ya just to say I did, LOL!
Ok I'm on the way tony local short track to watch my friend race his stock car, real car racing! Grass roots!
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I WAS SERIOUS ABOUT MY QUESTION EARLIER. THE RULES SAY "NO EXTERNAL MODIFICATIONS" IF IT'S UNDER THE FAN SHROUD WHERE YOU CAN'T SEE IT IS THAT LEGAL? MY CONCERN IS IF THE MATERIAL IS ADDED, SAY TO THE OUTSIDE OF THE PORTS, WHERE YOU CAN'T SEE IT WITHOUT TAKING THINGS APART WILL IT PASS TECH? EVEN IF WHILE PORTING A HOLE IS POPPED IN OR JUST THIN? IF THE FRONT OF THE BLOCK HAS A PATCH ON IT FOR WHATEVER REASON IS THAT CONSIDERED A EXTERNAL MOD?
I DO UNDERSTAND BY THE LETTER OF THE LAW THESE ARE MOD FOR WHATEVER REASON. THE REPAIRS COULD BE LEGIT FROM HUMAN ERROR, OR OVER DOING THE GRINDER.
HERE'S MY CAN OF WORMS THAT I WILL OPEN, OR DOES IT DEPEND ON WHO YOU ARE OR WHO YOUR FRIENDS ARE? REMEMBER THIS IS THE COFFEE SHOP AND I AM NOT POINTING FINGERS, JUST LOOKING FOR OPINIONS!
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put a claims rule on the motor of $2000.00 that would stop the big money spending
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put a claims rule on the motor of $2000.00 that would stop the big money spending
You'd also lose 95% of current BP/Super Sportsmen class mowers, and 100% of the super mods. Heck, you'd lose better than half the Mod X/CP mowers.
If you don't want to spend money, there are classes that work just fine.
Bert
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I disagree, I race the fxt class with a very mild build motor and have been very successful against racers with mega buck motors
I think racers will continue to race even with a claims rule, it's the love of the sport that keeps me in it not being the baddest on the block. You will always have people that are willing to spend big bucks just to win but at the end of the day it's the thrill of the competition that makes this sport great.
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I haven't complained about the money. My complaints are that we have too many classes and that the modified classes are no longer lawn mowers. Adding billett engine pieces only serves to widen the gap between real mower based racers and the fabricated fakes.
If the money involved in running 2 twins was too much, I wouldn't whine and ask for claim rules. I would simply run a class. I could afford.
Bert
PS. Ed wants me to buy him a 410 sprint car. I'm not whining, but I really can't afford that right now.
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Billet 410 sprint. Boyyee!
Personally, I feel a claim rule would be ridiculous.
Guy A spends a lot of time testing components and trying new things until he gets it just right.
Guy B tosses junk together, and it runs just like expected. Crap.
Guy B gets mad that Guy A has his stuff set on ^%$# up the competition and his stuff is still fitting a square peg in a round hole.
Guy B then gets butthurt and claims Guy A's engine based off that rule.
Guy B is a whiner who gets to benefit from Guy A's hard work by being a whiner.
And don't say that wouldnt happen. Happened quite a bit in the local asphalt track classes that had a claim rule.
Just my opinion.
Plus, I would not want to race with a mild engine. It would bore me to death.
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my mild engine is for from boring, like I said I hold my own with the big dollars motors
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Robbie does well against others. His mower handles well
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my mild engine is for from boring, like I said I hold my own with the big dollars motors
That just proves that is isn't all engine.
Guess we better put a claim rule on the complete mower.
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my mild engine is for from boring, like I said I hold my own with the big dollars motors
Maybe for you. It's not for me though.
When I ran single cylinders, we had some of the strongest ones around. Have the trophy's to prove it, and you can ask anyone who was on the track with them.
You couldnt even bribe me to race one now. Well, maybe if it was a really good bribe. Simply put, they bore me.
Our Tecumseh's are less big dollar than many would believe. They are just well thought out. The fact that we put a great deal of trial and error and thought process into the builds, where someone who puts forth no effort could then claim them? Pffft. They better bring boxes, because I'd be launching the rods through the heads before I let that happen.
Anyhow, do I feel billet heads should be allowed?
Nope.
Like I said earlier. Start with stock OEM head and block castings.
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Robbie does well against others. His mower handles well. Hmmm. Robbie has a boring motor. We've spent years improving engines and working like crazy to keep the chassis up to the motor output. Something gets improved every year. But they're still scary some days.
Bert
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If you can't afford to play with the big dogs then don't. Either make a name in a lower class to get good sponsors or stay with what you can afford. Racing isn't cheap, never has been, just so happens mowers can be cheaper than other things. As the story goes, if you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck. Doesn't matter the money spent on speed, handling will win in the end. If you just want to be faster, take up drag racing.
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WELL SO MUCH FOR MY QUESTION, OR I GUESS I GOT MY ANSWER, IN A TWISTED WAY.
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Guys your missing my point I don't care if someone wants to put thousands in their motor.
All I hear is it cost big bucks to run the super modified, that is simply not true. I cant compete
with people dollar for dollar but I'm competitive with what I have. If you are going to complain
about the cost of this class the best way to keep it down is claims rules. I just put $2000.00 as
an example because I have less than that in my motor. Sorry if I stepped on any toes out there.
This sport for me is about the friendships I've made with all of the racing family around the country.
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Guys your missing my point I don't care if someone wants to put thousands in their motor.
All I hear is it cost big bucks to run the super modified, that is simply not true. I cant compete
with people dollar for dollar but I'm competitive with what I have. If you are going to complain
about the cost of this class the best way to keep it down is claims rules. I just put $2000.00 as
an example because I have less than that in my motor. Sorry if I stepped on any toes out there.
This sport for me is about the friendships I've made with all of the racing family around the country.
YOU DIDN'T STEP ON ANY TOES! THIS HAS BEEN AN ON GOING TALK FOR A LONG TIME. BUY RULES CREATE MORE PROBLEMS THAN WHAT THEY ARE WORTH. SOME JUST HAVE TO WIN AT ALL COSTS! THIS STILL IS A FAMILY SPORT BUT JUST LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE A FEW WRECK IT FOR THE MANY AND THE MANY ARE JUST TRYING TO KEEP UP! WE ALL ARE TRYING TO REINVENT THE WHEEL IN OUR OWN WAY!
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Al, you're wrong! I do this stuff to get away from family. By the same, the Mrs. gets away from me, too!
Bert
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Al, you're wrong! I do this stuff to get away from family. By the same, the Mrs. gets away from me, too!
Bert
Bert has a good point. Going to the races and getting away for a while (so family members don't hurt or kill each other) can be a good thing. But i guess that would still make mower racing a "family" sport. :lol:
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Bert has a good point. Going to the races and getting away for a while (so family members don't hurt or kill each other) can be a good thing. But i guess that would still make mower racing a "family" sport. :lol:
LOL IT HAS BEEN AWHILE SINCE THE WIFE HAS GONE RACING WITH ME!
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My toes were not stepped on.
I'm not complaining about the cost of mower racing at all.
I think Bert only goes to the races to hang out with me and commingle with the cool kids.
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My toes were not stepped on.
I'm not complaining about the cost of mower racing at all.
I think Bert only goes to the races to hang out with me and commingle with the cool kids.
Actually, I've been contemplating doing more family things to get away from Ed, but my wife will have nothing to do with that.
Bert
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Actually, I've been contemplating doing more family things to get away from Ed, but my wife will have nothing to do with that.
Bert
My wife says..... "You need guy time, go get dirty and I will see you in a few days".
I say, "Well dear, I don't know if I want to take off right now". She says, "I have already
packed you some snacks for the road".
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Bert actually want to hang with me due to the fact I am huge in Japan.
Bert happens to be a big deal in Kazakhstan, which is no where near as cool as Japan.
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Bert actually want to hang with me due to the fact I am huge in Japan.
Bert happens to be a big deal in Kazakhstan, which is no where near as cool as Japan.
Kazakhstan has some cool billet performance parts for Trabants. NOW who's cool?
Bert
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Yeah. I hate to break it to you, but billet lug nuts are not exactly performance parts. And they sure wont make the chicks dig a Trabant.
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Any of you guys know what UAS kart racing is? Its is the acronym forUnlimited All Stars and it started out as a kart series for the guys wanting to get away from IKF rules, and do some trial and error experimentation on kart engines of the day. For what karting had become it was budget-less racing of RWYB (run what you brung) but no one cared to spend 10k. Two cycles limited to 250cc and four cycles at 500, but we had the field covered pretty well with a good basis Italian engine that still produces a lot of power, (30-35 ft. lbs. and 60-65 hp all out of 131cc single cyl. dual 380's on alky). Mainly because there no one wanted to spend the time to cut the transmission off of a 450 or 250 and mount it to a jackshaft plate. Then came someone with 10k to spend and finds out that this Jawa engine used in Europe in speedway bikes makes 50ft. lbs. and 100 hp carbed, add 10 to both with FI(all from 500cc single cyl.) . Now we stand at a point where what karting has been about for the last 10 years which is the best working tires and chassis will beat the biggest hp, period. Now these Jawa engines produce enough hp that chassis and tires can be, well the tires got a night left and the chassis can be ehh close, and their stomping everyone as long as the guy behind the wheel has a steady head on his shoulders and can wheel. Now we all complain about the Jawa's beating us with more hp than you care to need. My point in this is that there was a specific series with a body and rules catering to anyone that was willing to do what it takes, and now that technology has provided us with what we have we don't know how to handle it.
I agree with OEM castings in the Supers and FXS/T, they ARE NOT meant to be open style, they are still mower based which is why there is to left to right tire stagger,no seat offset and engines still mounted in front of the driver in near original position, believe me I would love for those to open up, but it would kill mower racing, why? Because we would have kart chassis with hoods and fenders.
There is mower heritage still in these classes so lets keep it that way, limit guys (and gals) to OEM casting of heads and blocks, let the rest be open, and have yourself a day. If you want to be superstar no offense to anyone, but lawnmower racing is not for you. Its fun family engaging Sunday activity that anyone can do.
I built ONE mowchine, and couldn't keep it running so I tore it apart and stored the parts in a tote, while I raced gokarts for a few years (for a very reputable two cycle engine builder) where I had little to no expenses and gained a tremendous amount of knowledge pertaining to rigid chassis and racing tires from karts to indy's.
I now want to build another because I do not care to spend more money on tires than anything else in my trailer and deal with the drama of guys thinking they are superstars and that I'm just in their way. I want to have fun no matter where I finish and admire the work of the people around me and hope that they admire mine.
Mower racing is not a show case of track talent, it is a showcase of pits talent and craftsmanship, putting the time into something that you are passionate about and being able to afford it. That is why we show up on Sunday's. Not to become somebody.
:twocents:
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I just do it for the beer afterwards.
Bert
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Well said IADIRT51.