Heymow - Lawnmower Racing Forum

Engine Help => Kohler Engines => Topic started by: Squidd on September 22, 2010, 01:05:32 pm

Title: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on September 22, 2010, 01:05:32 pm
On my Briggs, other than Head Gasket and crank seals, I pretty much put it together with RTV sealant rather than Gasket set.

Can I do the same for my K341 being built for pulling...?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on September 22, 2010, 02:09:19 pm
I always use a pan gasket when I assemble the unit together to make sure that it seals when under stress and strain, and always use the bearing plate gaskets to set the crank end play!!! The crank vent plate that goes over the valve box, if you are using the Kohler pieces then you will use two gaskets there as well as silicone or it will leak like crazy. I generally replace those pieces with solid aluminum ones.  The cam gear cover and fuel pump hole I use silicone to seat those up, the only thing left is the intake gasket. I have not used one of those in years, just a thin film of silicone and nothing else on that surface. Make sure the intake flange is flat!! otherwise you may be investing in a new carb. or have trouble with your intake manifold sealing up correctly! Some guys still use an intake gasket, but I gave up on those many years ago.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on October 02, 2010, 10:43:12 am
What about ring Gap...?

On a Briggs I would go tight on gap maybe .003" to .005"

Would it be the same on a cast iron puller...?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on October 02, 2010, 12:22:19 pm
I would go a little looser. .008-.010. Remember theres no cooling system. It will get hot. But IF you want to know a trick on the midwest flywheels you can install a stock briggs model 28 plastic fan set on the flywheel using the two 3/8 flywheel puller holes and it will drop right in a cub chassis even with the aftermarket driver. Then you do not need a electric fan and the plastic fins wont come apart.

You can also use a total seal gapless top ring and stock second ring. The engine will last a realy long time with that setup.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on October 04, 2010, 06:33:58 am
Rule of thumb for the Kohler type pulling engines as told to me by a very good source is 0.004" per every inch of bore for the "gapless" rings. (overlap gap). You do not want to set the rings too tight!! I would set them this way then forget about it until the next year!!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 02, 2010, 05:41:34 pm
Got my head in finally, been bidding on e-bay for weeks and hadn't seen one go for less than $75... at which point a guy could go billet... but was able to score at $32...

Now, how much can I shave off of it...? I've heard .050" and .060" as well as .100"

Or should I build the motor first and do a clay squish test, account for valve clearance and cut the rest off..?

Also, I was looking the block over, this one was ported before I got it, the intake looks nice and smooth and rounded over, but the opening is 1 3/8"
   
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_k341002.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=k341002.jpg)

My carb is 1.2"--- is the port too big...? should I sleeve it down to 1 1/4"

What does the stock opening start at an intake port of a K341 ?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 02, 2010, 08:24:13 pm
The stock port I.D. Is usually 1.250. I wouldn't go anymore with it. I would run it as is or if you wish get some ab epoxy and smooth it back down to 1.250. The cylinder you can clay above the valves and see what you have. Leave .075 above the valve and mill the rest off the gasket flange. Ends up being around .050 or so.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 03, 2010, 06:35:34 am
If you are wanting to get as much as you can out of this motor then build a head for it. The Kohler heads have too large of a combustion chamber for what you need. You can shave it all you want and it won't change that. I would leave the port alone for now, the carb. will be the main restriction with the 1.200" carb. s/u. There are 2 or 3 different port size that were cast into the K341 block. Even with the large Kohler port for a 1.200" carb. I would leave the bottom end alone other than smoothing, but shape the top then blend the sides to it, and make a manifold to match the port and the carb.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 03, 2010, 08:26:48 am
I have the capabilty of getting this head/combustion chamber welded up...is that the direction I should go...?

Or are you saying I would be better off starting with a billet head and opening the ramps myself...?

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 03, 2010, 09:42:06 am
Unless your rules dictate using a factory or look a like head I would use a billet head. Less time involved in making one from billet than welding up a Kohler head then hoping it does not fail. Plus you can put the plug where you want it/need it.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 03, 2010, 09:53:24 am
Billet head is allowed,

Where do I want the plug...? centered between valves  like on the LP heads ?

At this point I still have a few "essentials" to purchase just to get "on" to the track.. once I get up and running I'm sure I'll want to start second level "upgrades" and billet head would probably be right up there with long rod/short slug conversion to take advantage of the compression...

 
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 03, 2010, 12:13:23 pm
I assume I will need an electric fuel pump, low pressure...

Are either of these a good choice...?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/low-pressure-fuel-pump-marine-gas-diesel-UNIVERSAL-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4aa5df4c2cQQitemZ320610454572QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

3#-5#

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Low-Pressure-Electric-Fuel-Pump-gas-diesel-1-5-4-5-psi-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3361a966f7QQitemZ220681823991QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

1.5#-4.5#
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 03, 2010, 12:16:21 pm
Usually I put the plug in the center of the three circles (the valves and the piston). Trust me, once you build a head from billet you will never want to weld up a Kohler head and mess with that again!
Are you using racing gas or methanol?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 03, 2010, 12:35:10 pm
Gopher state is gas only and Wisconsin is Gas or Meth...but then NQS is meth only

I was planning on race gas, mostly because I am not familier with meth and all it's nuances..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: blasterracer817 on November 03, 2010, 12:44:50 pm
so squid thats what you call my home land lol, if your running in cheese land let me know if your gonna use meth i know a good place to get it, my quad runs meth
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 03, 2010, 01:52:42 pm
42s mr gasket pump works nice. That's what I use.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 03, 2010, 02:08:05 pm
Well when I first got into this we were required to run racing gas, but after switching to methanol I wished we would have done it sooner. I actually have less problems with methanol then I had with gas. You will have more torque, run cooler and it is cheaper. There is more consistency with a class running methanol than with a class running gas. The big difference is the jetting, once you have that then you are on your way! When I ran gas I used a blue Holley, a red will work fine also. With methanol I use a black Holley pump but swapped out springs in the regulator. There is a high pressure as well as a low pressure spring from Holley to use in their pressure regulators.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: fordman21 on November 03, 2010, 02:21:46 pm
I agree methanol is all around better, most folks aren't familiar with it so they stay away from it but its really easy to use and easy on parts.
Randy, those pumps you listed would feed a race mower with the same hp no problem but you always want to go a little overkill with the fuel pump on a puller. These guys are using pretty decent pumps that would feed a couple hundred hp easily, that's what you need. See if you can find something that is alcohol compatible just incase.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 03, 2010, 06:32:41 pm
OK, so I will bump up the gpm on the pump selection, and use something that is methanol compatible...

I will probably stick with race gas/ turbo blue for now (cause I'm familer with it) and get the tractor sorted out... then I can move up to meth and more motor when I'm ready eo try NQS

I'm sure once I'm on the circut, I'll get advice from the guys I'm pulling with/against and become more familer with methanol usage
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Burwell555 on November 03, 2010, 08:35:44 pm
I don't have any methanol advice or experience. But have experience with turbo blue in our mud racers and pullin trucks, and I have to say, I hate it! Lol I would run VP. The turbo blue we have problems with it turning into like a blue and white 'chalk' in the carb and regulator if it sets. When I say sets I mean we have had problems from one weekend pulling to the very next weekend. VP 116 does not do this. Hope this helps
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 04, 2010, 06:27:45 am
I would have to agree with that, when we were running gas we had the best luck with C16 from VP fuels, a bit pricey but it is good fuel!!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 04, 2010, 10:28:40 am
Along the same lines as the pump, I'll need a tank for fuel, I've seen them with and without a "return" fitting...

Do I need a return fitting with a gas or alcohol setup and electric fuel pump?

 I didn't use one with my gas Briggs and mechanical pump..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 04, 2010, 12:17:07 pm
I would highly recommend a tank with a return line fitting. A constant flow fuel set up requires one.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 05, 2010, 06:46:59 pm
Starting on the engine this weekend, block has been ported by Kerber before I got it, but valves look like stock 45* grind. I plan on 30 and 45* with under cut head and narrowing the stem slightly

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves002.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves002.jpg)

Springs had billet retainers, but seem stock, they are shorter and not nearly as stiff as the ones Lakota sent me to match cam

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves004.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves004.jpg)

On the block I plan on opening up the valve pockets by cutting in eyebrows to increase flow, and checked the bore, it's barely .003" out of round so I think I can clean that up by honeing

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves003.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves003.jpg)

My plan at this point is to get what I have, up and running, and then next year upgrade the engine, (offset guides, bigger valves, offset bore, weld the block, steel crank etc..) so if there are any "low buck" or garage upgrades I can do , let me know...otherwise lets save the full blown engine build for next winters project.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 05, 2010, 07:24:09 pm
If I build an aluminum plate cover for the valve spring opening, will I need to vent either it or the block seperatly...?

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 05, 2010, 08:28:28 pm
Randy you can vent it there but hook it to a catch can. Or pop the freeze plug out of the governor hole and tap it for 1 inch pipe I believe and with a 90 degree fitting and short hose with a automitve style valve cover breather on top. I would leave the valve spring pocket cover stock and vent the block at the freeze plug
Theres alot of improvement to be had on the eyebrow area as with any flathead. Looks like alot of improvement on your block. A total seal top ring on that stock piston is a good idea. They look like stock valves with the margain moved up to the top (biggest useable diameter). If you want it strong shoot for at least 120psi cranking compression. Thats my experience anyway.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 05, 2010, 08:47:21 pm
are you planning to run NQS stock alter with this thing? lol
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 05, 2010, 09:20:37 pm
If I build an aluminum plate cover for the valve spring opening, will I need to vent either it or the block seperatly...?

So I could put a fitting in the govener rod hole...? and then tube to a catch can..?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves010.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves010.jpg)
Cylinder honed, eybrows cut and blended...this is the way I was shown for the Briggs flattys, so I would assume it will be of benefit here...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves.jpg)

Got some old equipment, but it still works Ok, just need to polish the stems a bit more
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves007.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves007.jpg)  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves006.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves006.jpg)  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Valves009.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Valves009.jpg)

I need to watch that video on Degreeing a Cam a couple more times tonight and maybe try my hand at it tomorrow...


are you planning to run NQS stock alter with this thing? lol

NQS is not out of the equation, I am considering their rules as I build (that's why I only went to 52" on the wheel base)

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 06, 2010, 09:09:31 am
ha ha i would like to see you pull in NQS after u gain some experience at your local track!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 06, 2010, 09:31:40 am
Well it's all part of the master plan... I like the traveling, and after a few rounds with the same 5 or 6 "local" guys I'd be pulling against, it will be nice to pull against 10 or 15 in my class...

But I doubt I'll take an "untried" machine to a National event without haveing at least a few shakedown runs under my belt.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 06, 2010, 04:41:41 pm
OK so I got the cam in, crank. rod, lifters and piston...Set up degree wheel...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Degree.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Degree.jpg)

After about three spins of the wheel I'm getting a little dizzy and so I came back in to watch the video again...either I lucked out and happen to set the gear in the right position on the cam and everything is reading right...or I'm doing something wrong..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 06, 2010, 04:48:50 pm
If you set it up at tdc and installed the cam with the valves at equal overlap you'll be very close.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 06, 2010, 04:53:17 pm
Yes, that's how I slid in the major components, but there is still that couple degree play in the gear slots....

Like I say it seems to be opening and closing in the right areas, I need to do the math with a calculator, check it again as well as total lift...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: gtpuller on November 06, 2010, 08:17:45 pm
Your motor will be running in no time at this rate.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 07, 2010, 08:37:09 am
I didn' thave the bearing plate on when I did it the first time.. must be enouch play in crank to throw off numbers on cam..

Put bearing plate in and dial became much more consistant, got er dialed in at 30# with 115 overlap 269 duration and 348 lift

Cut the stock head down by .050"...will go with that for now, maybe do a little build up in the cc and and keep my eye out for a billet SA head

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_head002.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=head002.jpg)

Saw one on e-bay yesterday...hoovering around $102-$105 with a couple minutes to go.. I thought I'd slide in at $150 or so and snag it...seconds to go and I'm just ready to punch in my bid and it jumps to $208...dang, you can almost buy a new one for that...

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 07, 2010, 09:20:30 am
ha ha ha maybe your local CNC machine shop can maken you one cheaper if you sent them your stocj=k head and they do the work!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 07, 2010, 09:28:26 am
Even at $60 an hour probably not...Only way to do it cheeper will be to get a blank billet head and do the machining myself..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 07, 2010, 09:42:05 am
I think midwest has a SA head finished for around 120 or so. It even has there fancy logo machined in the top of it.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 07, 2010, 09:50:56 am
That is a good price, I looked at Vogel and Lakota and they were both $250-$260 for a finished head..-$50-$60 on a blank

On a side note, I did pick up a MWSC 6 pin Driver for $62...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Driver.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Driver.jpg)

That should match with the clutch I have now and I'll be ready to upgrade to a 3 or 4 puck down the road...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 07, 2010, 05:51:08 pm
zach kerber has one partly machined for 68.50! it already had the valve slots cut in it and all you have to do is build you a nice ramp to the pistion side of it and put dual plugs!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 07, 2010, 06:18:25 pm
That's something to look into...that's where I got my block, don't know why I didn't recheck his listings.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 08, 2010, 11:41:10 am
I have the MWSC crank Trigger setup... two wires..

From what I understand one goes directly to battery and other to coil... or do I need additional components, (msd box, condenser, resistor) ?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 08, 2010, 12:16:41 pm
One wire to the - side of a 3ohm coil the other to the ign switch along with the hot side of coil
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 08, 2010, 12:25:07 pm
Like this...? Butthen where is the battery..?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Ign.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Ign.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 08, 2010, 01:57:51 pm
Battery goes to one side of switch. other side of switch to pickup and coil. Get with midwest though to make sure.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 08, 2010, 03:21:52 pm
Yeah.. thats why I'm asking here.. lol

MWSC instructions say: "single cylinder engines use one modual and the black wire is hooked to the 'points side' or negative side (opposite of the battery feed side) The red wire is the power wire and should be hooked up to the positive side of the coil(switched 12v battery power)"

This is where I get confuded.... in series or in parrallel with the battery + ?   and do the coil and plate just self ground to frame/block ?

This way the modual is always "hot" that can't be good... instructions say " do not leave key on with engine off for long periods damage to modual will result"
Option 1
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Ign2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Ign2.jpg)

If I do it this way the coil is always hot...that can't be good either...
Option 2
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Ign3.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Ign3.jpg)

If I do it backwards, MWSC says I will fry the modual... So I'm gonna need some clarity here before I go hot..

Quote
Battery goes to one side of switch. other side of switch to pickup and coil
So it sounds like option 3 here is the way to go...?

Option3
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_Ign4.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=Ign4.jpg)

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 08, 2010, 05:52:43 pm
Start at battery. Batt + to switch. Switch to coil+, coil+ to power wire on pickup. Negative wire of pickup to neg side of coil.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: tractorracer12 on November 08, 2010, 05:54:39 pm
option 3 looks like the way to go. i have never ran it but i have been doing lots of research.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 08, 2010, 06:27:43 pm
Yep, sounds like option 3 it is...

Put the springs in, that was a treat, they are a good 1/2" longer than stock and way the heck stiffer...so I had to go backward to pull crank, cam and lifters out to get springs in the pocket...they are in now...

Cam, lifters and crank now in, but I snaped my ring compressor before I could pop the piston in...of course that never happens at 3:00 or 4:00 when I can go into town and get a new one always waits til after dark.... :noplease:

Got a stud kit for head, and getting ready to install crank sensor...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 10, 2010, 06:39:41 pm
Got a new ring compressor and set the internals.... Studded the carb and exhaust ports...bolted on all the covers and external dodads and gave 'er a trial fit in frame...

May be a little big for the frame, but I think I can shoe horn it in...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_engine005.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=engine005.jpg)     (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_engine013.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=engine013.jpg)

Rest of Puller build is in this thread http://www.heymow.com/index.php?topic=12731.msg177907#new
Once I get the motor in place I'll fire it up and break 'er in... :woo:
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 11, 2010, 08:45:39 pm
when i was just looking through your engine pics and i seen your ports were pretty big and i think it would be a good idea for you to put one of those MWSC port support plate on it! just to protect your block from breaking! they are very simple to put on!
http://www.mcssl.com/store/midwestsupercub/single-cylinder-engine-parts/port-support-plate-for-1cyl-kohler-engines-
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 11, 2010, 09:46:40 pm
I'm already squeezed on that side of the frame, don't know if I could get another 1/4" in there..and at this point I dont have a spacer or "extended" manifold to add leverage to break tabs off...

Will have to just keep an eye on it for now...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_engine011.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=engine011.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 12, 2010, 10:13:05 am
Kill switch...

I've been looking at basic trailer brake pull switches which are "open" with the plunger in and "closed or grounding" when pin is pulled..at least thats the way I read the add...

But if I have a battery powered ignition system and a battery powered fuel pump....

Wouldn't I want a switch that is "closed" or complete circut with the pin in and "opens" or kills battery power when pin is pulled as a safety switch....?

Or am I missing something here...??
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: gtpuller on November 12, 2010, 10:48:37 am
Kill switch...

I've been looking at basic trailer brake pull switches which are "open" with the plunger in and "closed or grounding" when pin is pulled..at least thats the way I read the add...

But if I have a battery powered ignition system and a battery powered fuel pump....

Wouldn't I want a switch that is "closed" or complete circut with the pin in and "opens" or kills battery power when pin is pulled as a safety switch....?

Or am I missing something here...??

you would want a normally open switch, when the pin is in, the switch would be closed, pull the pin, switch goes to normally open position, breaking the circuit.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 12, 2010, 11:26:33 am
Then why is everybody selling/buying these closed trailer switches.. when the pin is in the circut is "open" and when the pin is pulled the contacts touch and complete the circut.... the opposite of what we want...??
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 12, 2010, 12:17:16 pm
We keep things simple with the kill switch. We just use a male and female extension cord end for our kill switch.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 12, 2010, 01:12:39 pm
I like that...then I can wire it the way I want...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on November 12, 2010, 02:08:17 pm
The female end on my tractor has one wire going to the ground battery terminal, the other wire grounds to the frame. The male end has a jumper wire to connect both tabs, when the two ends are connected there is a loop for the ground, when the male end is pulled no more ground. The female end is connected in a rigid fashion to the tractor then the male end is connected to the female end then we wrap electrical tap several times around the split between the two, so it will not vibrate off but will pull apart.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 16, 2010, 03:45:06 pm
Got the motor clearanced in the frame, tank came in coil came in and I'm heading downtown to get a plug, wire and battery so I can fire it up...

What Kind of plug do I want to use with the stock head I have now...?

Where do I want to set initial timing with the crank trigger ? (I imagine I will have to dial in the flywheel mark it and then set the trigger..??)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 16, 2010, 06:04:44 pm
Just a champion plug that is for the 16 will be fine Randy. You won't have a problem fouling with the Bosch coil. As far as timing 28* is a good starting point.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 16, 2010, 08:27:17 pm
Where is the trigger point on the Crank sensor...?

I have the flywheel dialed in to 0* I have a degree tape from Vogal as well as degree wheel to set it at 28* BTDC...

But where do I lock in the trigger magnet... the pick up is 3/4" long and magnet is 1/4" should I set it in the middle of the pick up...? beginning ? when it leaves ?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_coil003.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=coil003.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 16, 2010, 09:35:59 pm
I would think in the middle but I honestly cannot give a for answer. On my home spun setups it is the middle of the pickup. Might want to call MWSC.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 16, 2010, 09:42:41 pm
I set it with the magnet in the middle but I'll give MW a call to confirm...

The bracket itself has a good 15* or so adjustment to "fine tune" the timing once I get a light on it.

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: fordman21 on November 17, 2010, 12:41:06 pm
Mine look to be set in the middle too Randy.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: fx28 on November 17, 2010, 05:35:22 pm
I do not run that type of setup ,however I think you could use a volt ohm meter on the pick up and find where it hits at.  On a side note on my msd pickup I was told that I would need to add a couple of degree's of lead from the actual point of where the magnet and the pickup lined up to where it hit while running.

Chuck Miller
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 17, 2010, 07:46:05 pm
It's ALIVE...

I checked the timing with a 12v light, comes on at 20* and goes out at 35* so mid point is right at 27.5 or pretty close to
 28*

Fired it up and got it to idle...but thats all it would do...any throttle at all and it stumbled out (lean?) I could get it to roughly rev up sorta if I used my hand as half choke...but would die out almost immediatly

I opened the carb and sprayed it out with cleaner, was very clean inside all passages appeared open...put it back on same thing...

I put on the stock #26 carb I bought off e-bay and once I got it dialed in was very responsive would idle and run to full rev and hold , it leaks gas out the bowl gasket so I took it off, buty motor did respond...

The first carb was set up for fuel pump pressure and right now I'm just using a gravity feed tank  on a ladder..would that be the problem with the carb, lack of pressure..? Hopefully electric pump shows up tomorrow..

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: fordman21 on November 17, 2010, 08:15:11 pm
That's must be where the problem is, higher fuel pressure will raise the float level a lot. Is there any abnormal restriction feeding the carb when the float is down by blowing into it?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 17, 2010, 08:37:01 pm
It was definetly "tighter" or more restricted in the bigger carb compared to the stocker...

I cleaned it out again sprayed it and blew thru the passages and put it back on...

I did have to open the adjustable main 4 turns..?? but now have throttle responce to WOT

Still stumbles just off idle but if I feather past that it responds well in the upper ranges...

I think I'll give 'er one more spray down and hook up the pump and see where we're at tomorrow...

I do have to say i am impressed with how "smooth" this thing runs compared to the Briggs motors...I did have the rotating assemblys all balanced and I'm sure the 30# flywheel soaks up some of the vibes..





Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 17, 2010, 09:24:43 pm
Got to have a fuel pump on that carb Randy. It has a small hole needle and seat. Won't run correct with gravity feed. I ran my engine 3-4 turns out on the main. Adj idle so when low and slow you get a puff of black every time it fires. Should rock and roll. That carb with a fuel pump will have all the response you need. Atleast on my wisconsin it did.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 17, 2010, 10:07:01 pm
Cool... will put the pressure to it hopefully tomorrow
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: jerb on November 17, 2010, 10:18:32 pm
too bad videos don't do an engine justice....would like to hear it run! great build Randy!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 18, 2010, 09:21:02 am
Yeah, video sound isn't any better then the computer speakers you play it on...

But a picture is always cool... 8)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_wired001.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=wired001.jpg)

Definetly a "thumper" when your standing next to that pipe playing with the carb... (my one ear is still ringing)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: fx28 on November 18, 2010, 12:26:20 pm
Nice job Randy!!!!!!!!!!

Chuck Miller
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: gtpuller on November 18, 2010, 05:24:04 pm
Congratulations on a job well done!!!!


Tim Johnson
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 18, 2010, 08:36:48 pm
Thanks Guys, appreciate all the comments as well as the advise I've been getting as I build...

It's coming along nicely, got the fuel pump in today wired and plumbed and it did make a big difference in the way it runs..

Much more stable and adjustable..just a touch of stumble off slow idle, but smooth if I start with a higher idle. I think I can adjust it out once it breaks in a little more...

I haven't put the tach on yet so no numbers to report.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 18, 2010, 08:44:21 pm
That's how they run Randy. You will have to throttle on it a couple times to get a good throttle response. Do you have a lot of pop when it idles. Put your ear by the air cleaner and you,ll here it. The more duration the worse it gets. It does affect low speed response a little. It was very bad with my cam. It was 290@.050 on duration.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 18, 2010, 08:51:21 pm
It definetly runs and sounds different than the snappy Briggs motors with lightened flywheels...

Still getting used to the whole "spooling up" to get the weight moveing and then the "winding down" when you let off...

That and I can count the exhaust pulses on a slow idle...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 18, 2010, 09:21:16 pm
Yeah its not a roundy round engine.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 19, 2010, 07:54:39 pm
i got a "Tiny Tach" brand on my tractor and its seems pretty good and they just upgraed all of their models to have 1/2 sec response than before they had a 1 sec response time on it! and its very cheap too!!! and it works excellent and you dont have to worry about using the batteries power to run those auto meter tachs! i got no problem with mine so far!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 19, 2010, 08:19:26 pm
Forgot all about my Tiny Tach.. I have one for checking IMOW and JP rpms... That would give an initial reading...


But I'm going to be putting on a Digitron with head temp and rpm recall for when it's up and running..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 20, 2010, 08:53:01 am
digitron is good too but i cant afford one of those things and it wont help me much with my stock tractor or 12 stock alter!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: birdman_express on November 20, 2010, 09:41:34 am
digitron is good too but i cant afford one of those things and it wont help me much with my stock tractor or 12 stock alter!

Sure it would. It is a tuning aid. Head temp, exhaust temp, RPM's for gearing.
Heck, you can even get a sensor hooked up for wheel speed in pulling, if needed.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 20, 2010, 09:53:21 am
I'm not sure where everyone thinks a Digitron is expensive.... I've had 4 of them now off e-bay all in the $50 to $75 range

My Tiny Tach was $25 or $30..? and doesn't have memory recall, head temp or inch tall numbers..

Here's one for $40 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DIGATRON-TACH-DT-32K2-GO-KART-RACING-CART-BARSTOOL-BIKE-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem43a338d8eaQQitemZ290501220586QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts

Heres' one for $75 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TACH-DIGATRON-DT-32-GO-KART-RACING-CART-DT-32K-2-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem3a6090bc3dQQitemZ250728201277QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on November 20, 2010, 09:22:18 pm
i've been wanting one of those that has 4 dialplay on there! those you had showed me only had two but they will work too! since i only have one oppunity to hook and not come back to top 10 to pull again! so i think its useless for me but i think it will help with my tractors that are stock alters!!! i got one stock alter 13hp honda on my cub! it needs a good tach!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 21, 2010, 11:28:40 am
Well I went and did it (again) picked up an SA billet head off e-buy and .031" copper gasket

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_SAhead.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=SAhead.jpg)   (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_SAhead2.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=SAhead2.jpg)

Once it comes in I'll do a CC and Compression check on the stock shaved head vs a Sa billet head

(at this rate I'll be on a stage 3 motor build before I hit the track... lol)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 21, 2010, 12:06:57 pm
Thats a good buy there Randy. You'll like it. Now just run it before you have the engine gutted on the bench.
Oh you might want to put your ign switch seperate from the key switch. Roll it over before putting spark to it. But you prolly do that with the briggs engines already.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 21, 2010, 12:12:46 pm
Yep running a three switch system ( and might go to a 4th...)

Two "on-off" for fuel pump and coil and one push button for starter...

But I'm contemplating adding a 4th "master" switch either keyed or tether so I don't leave the pump on or someone could push the starter when not desired.. (seperate from ground disconnecting "kill switch" in rear, although that would do the same thing)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: gtpuller on November 21, 2010, 10:54:45 pm
Randy are you using an adjustable pressure regulator with your electric fuel pump?

Mr gasket adjustable regulator 9710?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 22, 2010, 09:46:20 am
My understanding is the 43S has the regulator built in and an external one is not needed...

I'm running direct at present...
I just looked up the instructions on i-net, (I threw mine away before reading) and it does recommend a regulator if used on a carburator..?

I will have to look into this further.. My carb was built/matched to this pump, so maybe I don't need one, but you might..?

Looking at the pump, it only puts out 2 to 3.5 psi... and the regulator adjusts 1-6 psi so I'm thinking with the right needle and seat a regulator might not be needed..

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 22, 2010, 10:45:54 pm
Randy I ran it with no regulator. Never had a problem, always had plenty of fuel.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 23, 2010, 02:34:43 am
I would think so.. a regulator is used to lower and maintain pressure and there is not that much to start ...


I could see if the pump was doing 12-14 psi and I needed to cut it down to 2-3 psi to keep it from blowing out the carb... but that is where were at already.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: gtpuller on November 26, 2010, 06:55:39 pm
Does the ignition module retard or advance the timing with increased load or rpm on midwests crank trigger ignition?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 26, 2010, 07:56:39 pm
I don't believe it does, but I haven't put a timing light on it yet.

Just ordered one along with a new compression gage to get a baseline on this motor....

I'll post results as soon as the equipment comes in..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 29, 2010, 06:18:19 pm
OK some toys came in and I got a few readings...

Starting with the timing light, the MWSC trigger holds a steady degree no variance fom idle to WOT...

Billet head and compression gage came in so I did some comparisons:

Stock head shaved .050" ran 95-97psi with stock gasket and bumped up to just over 100 psi with the .031 copper gasket. I did a cc check and got 75 cc in the combustion chamber.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_comp003.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=comp003.jpg)

Then I cc'd the billet head at 62 cc, and got about 118 psi with the copper gasket (I don't plan in using the stock gasket so didn't check it) I'm <was> pretty happy with that seeing how I really haven't run the motor enough to break it in completely.
 
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_comp006.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=comp006.jpg)

Now the bad news... :noplease: I didn't get to check WOT rpm cause whilst I was revving it up to check timing something let loose and it developed a knock...I shut it down immediatly before I had a hole to patch.

I pulled the head looking for any sign of piston or valve contact  and there was none... but when I move the piston thru it's stroke (not tdc or bdc) I can turn the flywheel several degrees beforte the piston moves...this can't be good, I'm going back out to pull it apart should have more info later tonight...


Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: gtpuller on November 29, 2010, 07:05:53 pm
I'm sorry to hear that Randy I hope it is not as bad as you might think

Tim Johnson
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 29, 2010, 07:19:18 pm
Actually it's not that bad at all and I'm feeling awfully lucky and relieved right now..

Seems the rod end cap bolts came loose and gave it a bit of extra play...

Mashed the bearings a bit but didn't "spin" them in the rod end..looks good from here but I'll run it by the machine shop so they can check it for round...

Bearings are Federal Mogul and numbers are clean and readable so I should be able to pick them up local...

I will take the blame on this one, I didn't have a 3/16" allen head socket to fit my torque wrench...so I tightened them to what I "thought" was sufficient...Looks like I invest in a new socket while I'm down at the auto parts store... :oops:

I don't have a make on the billet rod, (I think maybe Kerber) so does anyone know what the 4 allen bolts should be torqued to??

Pan gasket was leaking, so I was gonna take it apart anyway...yeah...that's the ticket..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on November 29, 2010, 09:22:26 pm
Most are 20lbft per bolt.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 29, 2010, 09:37:43 pm
Thanks.. I looked it over again and I think I shut it down in time. No apparent damage to the rod end (still looks like the clean machining) and no deposits or scratches on the crank..

It was just starting to loosen up so it didn't pull the bolts out out of the rod or anything like that...it did loosen the "dipper" pin, so will need to secure that as well on reassembly

So... will go with new bearing and fire it up again..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on November 29, 2010, 10:59:32 pm
Thats a good buy there Randy. You'll like it. Now just run it before you have the engine gutted on the bench

Yeah well ...that didn't work quite as planned... lol
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 03, 2010, 04:09:48 pm
How much difference should there be between the OD of the piston and the ID of the bore...?

Piston seems a little "sloppy" in the bore even with the rings and I'm wondering if I'm just a little over/under on specs and should have it line bored to next size while we're at this point.

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 03, 2010, 07:26:47 pm
It's official rod is shot, machine shop tried to resize it but it was pounded too far out of round to get end cap to line up correctly..they cleaned it up a little bit but was going to take too much more work to justify. We (I) tried it with a new set of bearings but it started knocking the end loose again almost immediately. 

So looks like I'm upgradeing to long rod short piston combo a little sooner than expected, but I'm OK with that...

Now just need to figure out a good combination of rod and piston legnths and height.

 
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 03, 2010, 08:16:04 pm
Yes exactly Randy. Call MWSC and ask for a catolog. In the back they have a rod and piston combo chart with desired stroke. I think you can get pistons with a CH of .875, 1.0, 1.125. These will when combined with the correct rod give you a flush deck height or pop the piston out up to .060.

I have the "new" catalog downloaded, they don't have that chart anymore...does anyone have a copy of it they could forward to me I'd appreciate it...or quick review of formula to figure it out..?? I believe it was deck height minus pin height = rod length...??
OK let's see if I'm doing this right...

6.625" deck height...minus .875" pin height on piston = 5.775" rod length...

MWSC sells a 5.750" rod, which would leave .025" piston under deck (bout what stock depth is) or that much meat to square up head...

If I go with 5.812" rod, I would end up with .037" pop up and probably bang the flush cut head if I only have a .031" gasket...

Am I on the right track here..??
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 04, 2010, 12:27:22 am
Stock stroke, 6 inch rod, 1.000 ch piston is flush with deck
Stock stroke, 6.125 rod, .875 ch piston is flush
Stock stroke, 5.875 rod, 1.125 ch piston is flush

This is out of my newest super cub book. Have to use 3.250 for stock stroke.
Deck height is 8.625
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 04, 2010, 12:53:03 am
Excellent, thanks again Dennis...not sure where 6.625" came from, but it kinda worked with the numbers...

Will be on lookout for 6.125" rod and .875" x probably 3.755" piston

In the mean time I can use the short block to set up my clutch and driveshaft...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on December 06, 2010, 07:25:43 am
With the stock stroke, I know several that will use the 6.000" x 1.125" ch and get 0.125" pop up. That seems to be a good combination for the stock stroke Kohler engines.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 06, 2010, 08:37:35 am
Don't I need clearance in my head for that ?

I have a flush cut Billet head now..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 06, 2010, 12:30:10 pm
Yup. Do it on a milling machine. Helps with torque and flow but you don't loose compression
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on December 06, 2010, 12:30:35 pm
Yes, depending on how much you pop the piston out. I usually leave 0.045"-0.060" above the piston. It is just basically a counterbore that is about 0.020" or so bigger than the diameter of your piston and the depth of the pop up plus clearance. It helps the rod length but will also increase your torque by increasing cylinder pressure some, just slightly blend in the top edge of the piston that is in the combustion chamber.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 06, 2010, 08:17:45 pm
OK will have to see how that goes.. I have a bid in on a 6.125" rod now, we'll see if I win or just order all new stuff.

Is there more to gain in flow of the .125" pop up or the dwell of the .125" longer rod/piston combo.. ?

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 06, 2010, 08:33:09 pm
More flow Randy. Opens the transfer area up between deck and bottom of cylinder as the air flow rounds into the bore. I have never done it. I will with my newest set thanks to Bruce. So we will see
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Rooster on December 06, 2010, 09:02:47 pm
ANy pics you know of this being done?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Jeff Digou (Pitguy) on December 06, 2010, 09:05:09 pm
Class is in Rooster   take lots of notes :)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 06, 2010, 09:17:04 pm
Rooster not to hijack Randys build but with the right rod and piston combo you could do it with a oppo as well. Any flat head you can pop the piston out of the deck you can gain some power. Its new to me. Big Daddy Bruce turned me on to it. Gonna try it with my new combo. My big single is now a shave over 52cid. Anything helps when they get that big. 
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Rooster on December 06, 2010, 09:19:34 pm
Seee i was TRYING to stay under the radar...lol!
But that is why I was asking to see pics! I have looked at doing this with singles and twins...with a little bit more elaborate head work a guy name Vic taught me..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on December 07, 2010, 07:31:22 am
You will gain air flow in the form of volumetric efficiency. With the longer rod, at TDC, and at BDC the piston travel in relation to crank rotation actually slows down in comparison to the shorter rod length. And if you bring the head down correctly on the piston you will increase your chamber pressure because the piston is now displacing dead space that would have been there with no pop up in the area of the chamber directly above the cylinder. Another piece of advice is not to use a compression tester as an absolute measure of how much power you think your motor will produce, unless you spin that motor at 9000 rpm while you check cylinder pressure. Engines flow differently at higher rpm bands than low bands. A head may not produce as much compression at starting speed as another, but when that engine with say a lower compression test gets to its operating rpm, it may make more hp, and torque. Its all in the air flow!!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 08, 2010, 05:30:06 pm
I understand the advantage of the dwell time of the longer rod/short piston compared to stock length stuff, but stil don't see the difference or gain from pop up...?

Quote
you will increase your chamber pressure because the piston is now displacing dead space that would have been there with no pop up in the area of the chamber directly above the cylinder.

Seem's if I run a flush cut billet head and flush piston, there is no dead space above the cylinder (other than gasket clearance) to gain from, unless I cut some in, in order to make room for a pop up piston..?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: V-Mod on December 08, 2010, 05:42:23 pm

Seem's if I run a flush cut billet head and flush piston, there is no dead space above the cylinder (other than gasket clearance) to gain from

I would agree.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Rooster on December 08, 2010, 05:58:02 pm
I understand the advantage of the dwell time of the longer rod/short piston compared to stock length stuff, but stil don't see the difference or gain from pop up...?
Running pop up increases compression without reducing chamber size and thus reducing flow.


Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 08, 2010, 05:59:31 pm
If you pop the piston out say .100 you gain that much area of flow between the deck and bottom of head when piston is pulling air around the corner of the bore. Thus with more air in the cylinder means ore compression and power. Its more of a flow characteristic wich results in HP and torque. It is not a must do thing. Randy your engine will rock and roll the way it is with a flush piston and long rod combo. It will gain some torque with a popout setup. Its a proven dyno thing even on old flathead fords. It just helps flow. Back in the day they popped pistons out .500 and gained power with out loosing comp because of the bigger hole between the deck and bottom of cylinder head.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 08, 2010, 06:10:43 pm
Quote
you gain that much area of flow between the deck and bottom of head

Now I think I see it... kinda like cutting a fire slot in to increase flow, but then filling the space with the top of piston so you don't lose compression...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 08, 2010, 06:13:29 pm
yup
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 08, 2010, 06:13:32 pm
Sounds promising, but I think I may just go with the flush/flush for now and save pop up for my "stage three" build with 4" piston and bigger valves...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 08, 2010, 06:29:03 pm
I would Randy. Just run what you have then you'll have something to compare what you might have later. When the first engine is done and your hooking say a 24 tooth gear well and then the new engine hooks a 26 tooth gear like its its job. Its a good feeling knowing you built it home. I know when I got my stepdads roller command done and we ended up going up 2.5 teeth in gear and it still turns 8000+ on a power track it was a good feeling knowing what I built is making some good hp.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 09, 2010, 09:11:22 am
E-Bay rod went to almost new price, so I let it go...

Going to order up the rod and Piston from Vogel today...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 13, 2010, 02:03:27 pm
Got rod and piston in from Vogel today...nice looking stuff

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_piston001.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=piston001.jpg)

I understand the offset on the rod end and which way it goes on crank, but piston is not marked or noted for "top" or flywheel side...does it not matter...? I'm using Total Seal Gapless rings on this piston.

Piston instructions say: " vogel pistons are manufactured to a specific bore size...example: 3.780 piston-Bore to be 3.780"

Any reason to stray from this when I take my block in to be bored out...?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on December 13, 2010, 02:08:50 pm
It does not matter which side of the piston goes where. What he is telling you about the bore/piston size is that if you bought a 3.780" piston then you will bore/hone the block 3.7800". The clearance is built into the piston for that bore size.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 16, 2010, 09:32:40 am
Dropped block off at machine shop for boreing, I'll be out of town most of the next week or so, so I won't pick up till after the new year...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: fordman21 on December 17, 2010, 08:56:14 am
It would be nice to know what the piston measures out as and what they actually want for clearance. I'm sure they know what they are doing,  I wouldn't be comfortable doing it like that.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 17, 2010, 09:03:20 am
They weren't thrilled with the plan either, so I left the piston there for them to measure, they will verify the clearance is built in (cut off) piston before boreing,..

If not they have my number and are supposed to call if it doesn't measure out right....

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 17, 2010, 10:18:33 am
Don't worry Randy. Its right. Chuck has been using Arias for ever and has it down to a science.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 17, 2010, 10:28:39 am
Good...I also purchased a 4" ceramic coated piston for a future stage 3 build...so would be nice to know what desired clearance should be.

Will I need to sleeve the block to fit a 4" piston?

 
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on December 17, 2010, 12:05:15 pm
I wouldn't put a 4 inch slug in a stock kohler block. It will break. 3.937 is as far as I would go. You could go 3.937 and add some stroke.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on December 17, 2010, 12:16:44 pm
I agree, the only blocks anyone has had anyluck punching out to 4.000" are the 13 fin K341 blocks, and even then it is spotty. Not worth it!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 17, 2010, 12:52:46 pm
I was thinking extra stroke on the crank when I do...

I got a 4.068 piston, but your saying that's too much....

OK... :oops: send that one back on e-bay...

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 17, 2010, 02:28:26 pm
Dang, and It's a nice looking piston too...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_piston004.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=piston004.jpg)

That's OK I bought it right, should be able to get my money out of it if you insist I can't use it...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: birdman_express on December 17, 2010, 03:02:10 pm
Someone should snag it up for A/P class...  :noplease:

That is a neat looking piston, what are the specs?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 17, 2010, 03:18:07 pm
Arias 4.068" bore X .875" pin height

I'll have to look up the pin size for Kohler
Looks like .8757" for pin dia. as well..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on January 06, 2011, 10:17:51 am
Still waiting on block from Machine shop.... told them I wouldn't pick it up till after holidays...seems they haven't started it till after holidays...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 07, 2011, 08:43:54 am
Got the block back ready to rebuild...need to clearance the bottom of cylinder for new angle of rod...

If you set it up at tdc and installed the cam with the valves at equal overlap you'll be very close.

Dang, I wish I would have re read this yesterday... I remember slipping the crank in with the journal "up" cept the block is upside down so that was really BDC...

If anyone is interested...they won't run if the crank is in 180* off..

I'll get 'er straightened out this afternoon..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 07, 2011, 03:11:47 pm
Got 'er in... runs much better when the crank and cam are in sync...  :oops:

Also a lot quieter when the rods not beating itself to death...

A little break in and fine tuning and I'll be ready for a run

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_running014.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=running014.jpg)

Was going to get a pic of rod clearance, but had it buttoned up before I remembered camera
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: GRUBDIGGER on February 07, 2011, 06:50:52 pm
LOOKING VERY GOOD. ALMOST MAKES ME WANT TO BUILD A PULLER. :lol:
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 08, 2011, 08:36:27 pm
Quote
LOOKING VERY GOOD. ALMOST MAKES ME WANT TO BUILD A PULLER.
"Almost"?...I'll have to post a video of it "thumping" at idle...that should push you over the edge...
Any tricks for break in or fine tuneing the beast...?

I have the timing set a 28* for now, should I leave it there for now, do I want to go much higher for pulling...?

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 08, 2011, 08:36:28 pm
Come on Randy. I want to hear it run.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 08, 2011, 08:55:53 pm
So do I ....I keep going out to the shop to fire it up and listen to it thump at idle and rev er up a bit for grins....  ;D

My face is starting to hurt..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on February 09, 2011, 07:31:20 am
What I try to do on break in is start it up, let it idle until it comes up to temp. then try to load as much as I can for really short bursts, but shut it down before it gets really hot. Then drain the oil, let it cool down. Then restart the engine bring back up to temp., tune the engine, shut it down before it gets too hot. Drain the oil again, fill back up with oil then it is ready. Everyone has a little different method, as long as you get the rings seated, and the crankcase flushed out good, whatever works for you. Good luck, let us hear it as soo as you can!!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 09, 2011, 10:16:10 am
Still a little leary of running with no "blower", how hot is too hot, or how long can it run till you need to cool off...?

Hooking up Digitron with CHT is next on list of add ons, whats a good temp to run at or watch out for...?

On a Briggs Flathead we'd shoot for 450-475* running, but that was with a blower...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 09, 2011, 12:14:08 pm
You can let it run for quite a while when not loaded. You can't really go by the digitron when on gas cause when it 90* outside and you have a back to back pulloff you'll get scared of how hot it is and not want to run it. If it doesn't smell blown up then your good to go.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on February 09, 2011, 02:10:20 pm
Just use your better judgement. With gas you will build up heat faster than methanol. When running race gas you want to tune it a little rich once the engine has come up to "running temp". I always checked the head with my hand, once it got to where it was uncomfortable to the touch is when I would dig in to the tuning> (scientific I know!). You want to fatten the motor up until it starts to surge then back it off just a little. MAKE SURE your idle circuit is screwed as lean as you can before you tune it. If you are using a Kohler type carb. the idle circuit if too fat will engage at top end when tuning and you will never get it tuned right. Once you are done tuning then you can fatten up the idle circuit so it idles like you want it.
Just be careful not to get the engine too hot! Use your better judgement. I would never open a motor completely up on gas more than 3 or 4 times before I let it cool back down to try again if I needed to.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 09, 2011, 02:16:01 pm
So I want to warm it up, (with idle circut lean) then run it up/wide open to tune in the high speed, then back 'er down and fine tune idle...

Do I want to settle in to a reasonable idle speed, or the motor to die when I let off the throttle completely...? (is the deadman throttle a complete dead man)..?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 09, 2011, 02:35:56 pm
With that carb you have Randy it should idle as long as the ignition is on. I always ran it fat on the bottom. Little black puff,puff,puff at idle. That's how my engine liked to run. The low side didn't seem to affect the high end. Turn it as tight as you dare until it sounds right and then back the high speed jet out 1/4 turn. Then take it to the track. Should be real close.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on February 09, 2011, 10:22:40 pm
Once you
Just set the idle speed where you like it. You dont want it too slow because it will be really sluggish and not too fast for it will heat up really quick. I set mine to where i could idle in gear around the pits and the engine not die. Once you have the engine broke in a little and have the rings seated then tune it. Once your high speed is set then set your idle. While tuning the top end dont be surprised if the engine may want to idle fast. You may have to adjust the idle butterfly screw to slow it down a little. Once the top end is done, adjust the butterfly screw and the air screw to get the desired result, just dont set the air screw too fat because if you do it will engage on top end especially in a big butterfly kohler type carb. The deadman means return all the way to idle. Sometimes you have to jack with linkage to get it to work. I had better luck with a single wire push pull cable than a braided cable for throttle linkage but that is really a persons preference.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 11, 2011, 04:56:21 pm
I don't know why I'm doing this, they always sound crappy on line...

Still a little rich on top end...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_vid.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=vid.mp4)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 11, 2011, 05:07:07 pm
Sounds good Randy. Try tuning it with the air cleaner on it though. I would try it the way it is right now. If it sounds like its turning up in the rpm well and has a good idle give it a shot first pull. Hopefully were you pull they have a play day. Then you can tune it up well.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on February 14, 2011, 12:22:08 pm
Agreed, it might richen up a little once the air cleaner is on it, but it is a good idea to have them a little rich on gas so at the other end when the motor is good and hot it will burn off a little of the extra but still have a good air fuel mixture for good torque. Sounds like you are ready to hit the track with it, sounded real good coming down, a bad valve job may make the engine pop and crack on the way down but this one sounded good to me!!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 20, 2011, 04:23:48 pm
Got the Digi hooked up and tested out, don't think it was making power up here, but should pull thru 6,300-6,500

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_005.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=005.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on February 20, 2011, 04:30:02 pm
That sounds right with the cam you have Randy. It is a little short on duration compared to what is out there. I have seen them up into the 296@ .050 in duration. But the power band gets moved way up as well. Should make good torque. I think you'll love the sport Randy.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 20, 2011, 04:37:51 pm
I'm looking forward to it.. Found a club up in the U.P. of Michigan they're gonn have a pull 45 miles from me this year, that's practicly "down the street" here in the northwoods..

I looked the numbers up on my cam, was 269* duration at .00" didn't measure at .050"
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on February 21, 2011, 04:14:38 pm
Compression wise...

I have 36.471 cu/in = 597.77 cc

597.77/ 62 cc chamber = 9.64 to 1 compression...

Does that sound right..?

Thats full bore on cylinder and Combustion chamber + head gasket for cc
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 15, 2011, 12:50:33 pm
OK, haven't had a chance to run this first one yet, (which is a stage 2 build) but I picked up a new K341 13 fin block for Stage 3..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_k34113.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=k34113.jpg)

Right now it's 3.755 bore, stock valve...Whats the biggest piston, valve, crankand cam combo I can put into this block, and or what is a recommended bore, stroke, cam I should use...?

Thinking full pop up, offset valves and pinned cam...??

Basicly what's the biggest class I can make without getting into a Woolham or Jones block...??
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Caseracer on March 15, 2011, 02:00:55 pm
Squidd, I have been told the 13 fin can go 3.92 with the head strap and stay together.  I have seen several that were 4.00 but they usually don't live too long. 

Jack Jones
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 15, 2011, 02:55:11 pm
Thanks Jack,  that's what I've heard for piston size, (3.937" actually) which with a 4" stroke should get me in the 50" class.. (48.965" cu/in)

Question I have is, @ 3.5" stroke I'm Ok, @ 3.75" stroke I need a pinned cam @ 3.937" or 4" stroke I need..?? and is it worth it.. ?? and does stroke limit my cam choice..?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on March 15, 2011, 04:53:23 pm
I know a good stock block kohler class is the 48cid class. The stock block will go 3.937 and stay together with a strap as Jack said. The biggest bore and the most stroke you can use to get the desired cid. The stock block in a 50.5 class would get run over. There is so much more meet in the aftermarket block that the porting is far and above better then a stock block ever thought about being with out serious modification. You could build a missouri super stock type motor witch is a .060 over 16 with no cam rule and I think you can run big carbs. The setup you have now randy with a BIG cam and big valves and some good port work on alky would make good hp.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 15, 2011, 05:04:37 pm
Big valves meaning 2.035" and 1.625"...???

Thinking bout having Rooster make some up out of titanium while he's into it....

3.937x3.937 = 47.928 cu/in I'm kinda likeing that...

Gopher State has a 45" class and WGTP has a 43" class (which hardly seems worth spending the money?) then they both jump to 50.5"...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on March 15, 2011, 05:45:52 pm
The only thing I can tell you Randy is the 50.5 class will be mostly aftermarket blocks. That 45cid class would be fun.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 18, 2011, 10:15:53 am
OK, I picked up a pair of TI valves 2 3/16" and 1 5/8"...

Do I still want to use the offset valve guides or will the oversize valves be too close..??
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on March 18, 2011, 12:41:00 pm
You would want to move the intake valve towards the bore center. Enough to clear and tighten the combustion chamber up.
With a valve that big after your done porting you will have weld around the carb flange and up under and around the port. You will need a port support plate as well.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 18, 2011, 12:49:23 pm
Yep. I figured the support plate on this one..

Shhh on the welding... :ninja:

Are you saying just move the intake in...or both..?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on March 18, 2011, 02:05:15 pm
Just move the intake in toward the bore and as close to the exhaust valve as possible. On my new setup I have .020 between the valves.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on March 18, 2011, 02:15:08 pm
If you move the valves much in a Kohler block you will have to weld up the backside of the bowl areas on both the intake and exhaust. The 2.135 valve is way more valve than the Kohler will flow. I would not go over a 2.00" intake valve even with a stroked 48" motor. about a 1.800" on a stock stroke 0.060" motor. I think you are right that anything over 3.500" stroke and you will have to go with a pinned cam. I used a 3.937" x 3.875" combination for a 47-48" motor and it worked really well. I have seen some 3.9375" x 3.750" engines, but I usually out torqued them with the 3.875 stroke. A 4.00" stroke will require major surgery on the Kohler block, 3.875" is not too bad, you will have to remove some rod material to clear the lifter though. What ever you decide to build DO NOT over valve the motor!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 18, 2011, 02:26:53 pm
The valves are raw and will need machining, so I can go any size...thats why I'm asking here...to get a "balance" on the parts without overkill or missing something..

Are you saying at 2" I don't need to move valves..? Is the 1 5/8" OK on the exhaust...?

45 to 48 cu/in will be the goal, (depends on what group I find around here to run in)

So 3.875 on stroke and I need a pinned cam.. (I'll figure piston size once I lock in a class) ...what kind of numbers should I be looking at for a cam.. ?

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on March 18, 2011, 03:58:40 pm
Its not that you dont need to move the valves Randy. The stock kohler port and block just wont move the air the big valves need. The ports just arent there to support a big valve. A good 48cid cam is the same one I have or vogels .533 grind. My cam is .535 lift 290@.050 on both on a 108lc. You could go say 1.900 in and 1.500-1.600 ex on valve size. Using a slide in exhaust flange to cover up the threads. The bigger the valve you have the less duration you really need as long as your porting is good. I ran a bigger duration number then vogel uses on his .533 grind because I have a BIG stroke. More then you would ever get in a kohler block. Maybe more then an aftermarket block will allow. If you went 3-7/8 bore with as much stroke as you can you would have a block that would live for a good long time.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 31, 2011, 11:23:05 am
Got the TI valves in... 1.95" on Intake and 1.65" on exhaust

These should flow some air...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_034.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=034.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on March 31, 2011, 12:34:10 pm
Have you decided which class to build for?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on March 31, 2011, 12:58:18 pm
Not yet Bruce... I have a 43" and a 45" class available, but I'm kinda holding out for a 48" class to make it worth while...

But most clubs jump from 36.5 to 50.5 where I'd be a little outgunned..

So no major work yet till I lock in a class near me... still waiting on a couple clubs 2011 rules to see where I might fit.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 14, 2011, 11:35:35 pm
OK so the motors been run in and running fine since winter...

Getting ready to go to my first practice pull or test and tune next weekend...

Needed to change to 1" carb to be legal with this club, so I picked one up this morning (Thanks Kevin) and put it on the block..

Tuning it in, I get the motor started (fat) and lean it in till it runs right...gave it a few revs and shut 'er down...

Next time I go to start it it "Clunks" and locks up..! whats up with that..?

I pull the head and see a "horizontal" groove in the cylinder wall

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_016.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=016.jpg)

It's deep enough that the rings catch and lock the starter...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_017.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=017.jpg)

What causes this.. I don't think it rusted up in the couple weeks it sat since I last started it..and it doesnt start with the piston all the way to the top???

I'm hoping I can hone it out and a new set of rings gets back up and running for practice pull...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 14, 2011, 11:50:08 pm
Might want to make sure piston clearance is correct. Looks like piston broke or ring broke. Are the ring grooves wore out aloowing the rings to move up and down in the ring groove. I dont think a hone will get it fixd if if its locking the engine up.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 15, 2011, 02:54:59 pm
Got it apart, rings weren't broke, but gapless center ring was "stuck" in the groove.

Piston was OK as well, I cleaned the ring groves out and cleaned up the rings, now they move as typical.

I honed the groove out of the bore, and checked ring end gap.. .018"-.020" a little big, but I'm gonna roll with the set I have for this week end.

Fired it up and doesn't seem to smoke (after initial assembly smoke) so I'm gonna run 'er in and see if I can get the carb dialed down..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 15, 2011, 02:58:36 pm
I would like to know what caused it. Do you think it was the rings? If the gapless ring did that once I would be looking for a standard set of moly rings. Never seen that before Randy.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 15, 2011, 03:29:39 pm
I looked at rings under a magnifying glass and didn't see any damage or chipped or rolled edge but I did break the edge and face with some 1500 wet or dry so it would reseat...

My original end gap was .010" - .012" I didn't think that would be too tight, and I really didn't put a heavy load on it in any of the run in I was doing..

The groove was 1/3 way down the cylinder so I'm wondering if there might have been a "soft spot" in the cylinder bore..?

No scratches on the piston skirts, so I don't think it was "rocking" in the bore...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 15, 2011, 04:34:40 pm
That doesnt sound too tight to me. I always run the normal .004 per inch of bore. Never had a problem. I always just use a hastings moly ring though. Tried the gapless and didnt see a gain. Just a longer rebuild cycle. I rering every season so it didnt matter to me.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 15, 2011, 07:37:17 pm
Well it's up and runing now....

I've fired it, run it up and let it cool down 3-4 times and it starts easy and revs full and clean with no sign of locking up again, so we'll see how it does next week at the practice pull..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 16, 2011, 04:54:30 pm
Now I'm bumming...  :mad2:

I noticed the carb wasn't opening all the way so I adjusted the linkage so the butterfly opened all the way...

I fire it up to check it out and it revs up ...and dies down... ???? I found the crank trigger ring was loose and moved from the sensor..

I put it back on and fire it up again...and all heck breaks loose... :confused:

Crankshaft snapped and flywheel starts bouncing around throwing sparks...

I think I'm gonna take up GOLF....

Don't think I'm making the tech and tune this weekend...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 16, 2011, 07:41:58 pm
Randy what did you do? I have only seen one stock crank snap. On the flywheel side like yours. This crank ran 3 seasons in a altered 16. I think the sudden stop of the previous ring issue might have stressed it enough when the inertia hit after the crank stopped. I would try to find a std stock crank. Full round bottom. Dont worry about balancing. What you have is still overbalanced with the short piston and long rod. Hope it didnt hurt anythng else.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 16, 2011, 09:05:13 pm
Either the ring shock or the timinig spun up when the magnet ring came loose..? It was used when I got it, who knows how long...

I was really psyched up about my first pull....This is as bad as when I drove 18 hrs to Tennessee for the first All American ....and snappped the crank on my FX during morning warm up..

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Rooster on May 16, 2011, 09:07:07 pm
I was really psyched up about my first pull....This is as bad as when I drove 18 hrs to Tennessee for the first All American ....and snappped the crank on my FX during morning warm up..

I know that feeling....SUX!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 18, 2011, 08:20:54 am
Not sure if I want to try another "stock" crank....or bust out for a forged unit...

Used stock $125... new forged $300...gonna see if a used forged is available...

Gotta get a set of rings and will need bearings to match the crank, so I might just order all from Vogel and be done...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 18, 2011, 11:07:44 am
I know what you mean Randy. That forged unit from vogel is a nice piece. Easier on the wallet then the ones from midwest and vogel has used it in there 50.5 to test it. It is strong. I just feel there was something wrong with your crank from the start. Stock ones breaking isnt commom.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Burton for Certain on May 18, 2011, 12:03:49 pm
Stay away from lakota. Their cranks/rods don't hold up.  We use Nichols parts and don't have to touch the engine for two years. We used to have to have vogel/whitworth engines and we had to tear them apart quite a bit more frequently than Nichols engines. Both make great stuff just telling from personal experience.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on May 18, 2011, 04:05:33 pm
Machine shop could had made a mistake by droping it or if you bought it on line and got hit real  hard thru shipping maybe?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 18, 2011, 04:24:18 pm
Crank was used when I got it, got it thru Zack Kerber and I know it was in a puller before I got it, so it may have several seasons on it already..

Weird part is it broke on the Cam Shaft side of the rod ???

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_022.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=022.jpg)  (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_020.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=020.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 18, 2011, 05:06:43 pm
OK talked to Chuck at Vogel... ordered all new parts, crank, rings and bearings and "special oil" ..

End gap was way too tight...we figure thats what scuffed the bore up and then twisted the crank...

I'm gonna send the block in to get the bore straightened (hopefully that doesn't take weeks and weeks like last time) and run the piston and rings a lot looser than we've been talking.. 
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 18, 2011, 08:50:27 pm
Randy what did he tell you to run for piston clearance and end gap. My piston is an old arias. Chuck told me .006-.007 on it for piston to wall clearance. I'm running standard moly rings at .004 per inch of bore for ring end gap.
Is that the gardngo oil. Cenpeco brand. Its good stuff. Just full of zinc. I personally use bradpenn. Same stuff. Full of zinc.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 18, 2011, 09:06:22 pm
Yes .006 to .007 prefered on the piston to wall clearance and I would be OK .001 to .002" over that to clean it up...bore was originally honed .005" over piston per Arias spec sheet...

Ring gap is huge...told me he starts at .020" and second ring should be .008" to .010 more... we went over the numbers a couple times to be sure, I told him I started at .012 and he said look for shiney spots on the ends of the rings, sure enough they were binding..

On the oil he said I could gain 2-3 hp over the 20-50 wt I was using..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 18, 2011, 09:16:11 pm
I just checked my rings. Top is .018 and second is tight at .020. The oil I use is 30wt BradPenn. Chucks knows what he's talking about. I use his parts before others when I can.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 21, 2011, 06:55:01 pm
Bore is too big to clean up and still use .030 over piston, they make bigger pistons but then I won't be legal for SA class so I'm gonna save this block for SS motor down the road and start over with a 13 fin wide base block, bored to fith the piston I have...

First thing I need to do is convert block to narrow base pan (cut off flanges fill in slot)...will JB weld hold in the "slots" or will I need to weld (is mig or braze prefered)?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_024.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=024.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 21, 2011, 08:38:07 pm
I've seen it done two ways. Both ways require baking the block to cook the oils out of it. Then while warm you can stick weld with a nickle rod or you can furnace braze weld it. Then after wards you'll have to have the bottom of it machined flat. If you can find a block from a jd with a wide base a cub pan will bolt to it and you don't have to machine or weld it. Just cut the ears off it.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Wheelhorseracer on May 21, 2011, 09:03:15 pm
Just make an adapter plate out of steel or aluminum to mount it in your chassis and use your existing pan...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 21, 2011, 11:14:33 pm
The wide base is too "wide" to fit in my narrow frame cub... by a couple inches..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_024.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=024.jpg)

I heated them up to burn the oil out, and welded the slots full...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_025.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=025.jpg)

Then I cut the flanges off and ground 'er smooth should be good to go...

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_026-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=026-1.jpg)

Holes are there, just need to tap them for the pan bolts
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 23, 2011, 05:49:03 pm
Good news in all this is the tech and test pull was rained out Saturday...so they're doing it again This Weekend...!! More good news, found a new(different) machine shop and talked to them saturday, dropped off block this morning and they said I can have it tomorrow...and crank and rings showed up today...so I may have it running in a day or two...

Bad news is...it's my wifes birthday on saturday, so...decisions, decisions.... (I wonder if she'll miss me..?)



Title: Re: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: THawley08 on May 23, 2011, 05:56:44 pm
Take her along.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 23, 2011, 07:50:54 pm
I wish you the best with that Randy. Its a new sport to you maybe she will take interest and want to go watch.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 23, 2011, 08:16:28 pm
Well, she was gonna go last weekend, but this weekend she wants to get the garden in...

I did the rototilling Sunday so she should be happy and busy for the most of the day when I'm at the pull, long as I come home at a reasonable hour and I can take her out to supper all should be well...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on May 23, 2011, 09:38:19 pm
Randy did chuck give any info on what he has tested that crank in. I thought that he had said he has a big bore 50.5 engine with that stock stroke forged crank in it.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 24, 2011, 07:59:00 am
We didn't talk alot about the crank, more interested in what hapened to the old motor and how we could avoid that again...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Burton for Certain on May 24, 2011, 08:22:04 am
I'm pretty sure knowing Chuck and having used his engines and him personally building ours a few years ago that he would never use a forged crank in a 50.5.  The odds are too great for it breaking on a national level.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on May 27, 2011, 12:31:01 pm
I just got back on here after a few weeks away, Really sorry to hear about your crank. Stock cranks will start breaking around 30-35hp, 30lb/ft torque. Quicker if there was a defect in the casting or previous stressing was too great. You are definately moving in the right direction with the Vogel forged crank for reliability and cost effectiveness. If you do weld up the block, here is what I have learned. 1:) hot tank the block first, then pre heat the entire block to 450 F. localized heating will/can cause stress after the welding process is over. For what you are wanting to do I would recomend brazing, you are after more of sealing up than taking stress in that area. DO NOT USE Nickel or stainless steel, it will fail and cause a weak zone all along the edge of the weld with this grade of cast iron, these are not high quality nodular iron blocks. If welding the ports for a massive build up I use cast iron, yes the old cast iron melting/welding process, any thing else I use brazing, do a good pre heat with the entire block, heat the area really strong and move out some just prior to brazing then use PLENTY of flux. The iron will accept the brass if properly done right more like capillary action. You can see the pores of the metal open up then thats the good time to start adding your brass.
  Again, sorry about your mis-fortune with this, if there is anything I can do to help you just let me know or someone else know. This is a great site with a lot of good people willing to share and to help out!!

Good luck, Bruce
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 30, 2011, 07:48:17 pm
What should I be running for valve lash...?

I didn't get specs with the cam...lakota steel cam

I'm running .010"
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on May 31, 2011, 02:06:13 pm
With brand new valves and seats with stainless valves I run 0.012" on intake and 0.014" on exhause. after they have had runs on them I will tighten them up to 0.010" intake and 0.012" exhaust.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on May 31, 2011, 02:20:07 pm
OK so I'm in the ball park there..

I set my timing at 30* when I left home, but it was 35* when I checked it after my run...

Would being over on timing "lug" my motor down on a pull, ? I didn't hear a pinging detonation when it ran...I just want to eliminate that from the equation before I invest in new gears...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Burton for Certain on May 31, 2011, 03:06:30 pm
You wont get your max rpms at 35* usually. 31/32* will usually get u max rpms. It drops off pretty quick after that. You can drop down to 28* in the torque band. But only a dyno will give u true numbers
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 14, 2011, 01:10:24 pm
Got some plug pics...

Looks tan on the insulator and ground probe, with a slight gray on the ring to me ...in the OK to slightly lean range...?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_018.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=018.jpg)

Also anyone know how to read "timing" from the base of the ground probe..??

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_020-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=020-1.jpg)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: George Herrin on August 14, 2011, 02:59:46 pm
grayish silver tint I have always been told/taught is an indication timing is too high. and the other from what I can see in the plug Randy looks to be just a hair lean!!!
BUT understand this I AM NOT a plug reader per say all I know is what I have been told!!!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 14, 2011, 04:37:18 pm
That's cool... I'm just going by what I've read/seen on the net...and I agree with the slightly lean

I read about the timing, but not completely sure what I'm looking at there, I thought it was how far up the ground probe the color change is that told timing...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 14, 2011, 04:44:37 pm
That looks close. Maybe a bit lean.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 14, 2011, 06:01:20 pm
Fatten the high side up a 1\4 turn and recheck it. If your timing is 28-30 leave it there. Its just lean.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on August 17, 2011, 12:28:36 pm
If you are using VP fuels and especially C-12 and have the carb. close to being perfect then the plugs will look lean, never put much faith when tuning a pulling engine by the plugs unless they are fouled really bad. If it runs good on top end and bottom and the plug fires correctly then you are in business!! 8)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 24, 2011, 02:17:51 pm
OK so I just put my new cam in, (lifters springs etc..) everything else the same and fired up the motor...

Started fine.. Idles fine... won't go over 5000 rpm...??

Flywheel key is good, checked timing with degree wheel and light... OK

Spark Good, Ran carb adjuster in and out gets better but not much over 5k...

Compression good, leakdown good...

When it cools down I'll recheck valve lash, might be on tight side, does that sound like the problem, or should I look elsewhere..?
Not valve lash, rechecked adjusted "slightly" but no improvement..

I'm going to try a new plug, although this one looks to spark fine...


Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Rooster on August 24, 2011, 02:25:21 pm
Stupid question but.....didn't get the cam timed wrong ?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 24, 2011, 02:37:06 pm
I don't think so, I checked it with degree wheel when I put it in, and starts and runs too good (I think) for it to be off...

But if I don't get a "quick fix" I'll pull the motor and try again.. Just hate to pull it all the way down just to get the springs off...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 24, 2011, 03:40:03 pm
Pulled motor, double checked cam spot on to specs..

Going to run into town and get new plug..

Carb maybe.. but will go rich gurgly and lean poppy but no speed increase in middle ground.. ??
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 24, 2011, 04:25:35 pm
Shouldn't be carb. It was on a 45cid engine and ran 6000+ with out a problem. It could be air flow restricting in the cylinder head. You did install a different head? A stock head will flow alot of air but will be down on compression. With a stock head on it you could verify if that was the problem. It will turn hard with a stock head. If it does retry the billet head. see what the difference is. Is the rod in correctly. oil hole in cap toward the cam. If not it could be locking it down on you. It has to be something simple randy. That cam in a stock unported block should turn hard.
try it with out the air cleaner too.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 24, 2011, 06:01:36 pm
I'm getting a lot of blow back thru the carb at 3500...minor at idle like the other cam, but quite a bit as it revs up...

Doesn't seem to be "binding" or tightening up mechanicly, also double checked flywheel key (OK)

I'll try original head next...
It was the head...newer "high compression" head dont seem to flow worth a darn
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_601111020-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=601111020-1.jpg)

Went back to original billet revs good now...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_012-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=012-1.jpg)


Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Rooster on August 24, 2011, 06:27:07 pm
Do you know what the CR difference in the 2 heads is.
Biggest mistake I see people making on flat heads of all kinds is giving up flow for compression.
Usually, the amount of compression they gain is minimal, especially considering the amount o flow they lose to get it.
We took measurements on a pair of Flathead Fords once. The difference gained in leaving half the block m,aterial ended up being .13 pints of compression, the amount of flow lost was much more significant!
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 24, 2011, 06:33:00 pm
Smaller head is 55cc which gives a 10.26:1 ratio and the original head is 65cc which gives a 9.46:1 ratio

Now that it's running, I will probably do some "experimental" grinding on the bridge between the valves maybe loose 5cc and see if that opens the flow on smaller head but still a compression advantage..

If not, I'll run with what I have..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 24, 2011, 06:59:54 pm
With that mountain of aluminum inbetween the valves and the lack of ramp it will not run well at all. I think I said something about that head somewhere on one of your posts. The other head you have is what you want. It also looks as if who built it knows what they were doing. It looks cnc cut. I would run it as is Randy. My cylinder head I made is 90cc. But with all the bore volume and gasket volume numbers figured up my engine is 9.90-1.

The blow back is normal. You have a ton of valve overlap now. Alot more chop at an idle. The cam is meant to turn and turn hard while sacrificing low end runabililty. It will still pull down low but the cam is meant to be run at prolly 7500+ to be in its power band. It should free rev 8500 if your porting and cylinder head is flowing good.
Watch this.

http://youtu.be/WIa9prtYDvg

Serious blowback, big duration stock altered cam. This is a stock block motor.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 24, 2011, 08:24:14 pm
I am having a bad day here...Started out getting motor tuned, was turning 8500 easy,
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/th_025-1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v248/Squidd/?action=view&current=025-1.jpg)
Then all of a sudden started blowing smoke out the breather and slowing down....reved to 7900 then only 7200 and i shut it down..

Drained oil (new from yesterday) and it was black with a gray shine to it...:noplease:

Pulled the pan and found I spun a bearing...oil dipper which is supposed to lock it in had turned itself out and bearing spun in rod end...

Going to rush order some new bearings, and polish out the crank is ther anything else I should be on the look out for..?

I know I torqued it correctly, bolts were still tight when I took it apart...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Rooster on August 24, 2011, 08:27:03 pm
Well....I don't feel so bad about my day now...if that helps any?
I was feeling bad, then Larry told me he blew the supermod up, and now you....
http://www.heymow.com/index.php?topic=16128.660

Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 24, 2011, 09:06:08 pm
Locktight the dipper in. Always. Make sure you have good fit in the big end so the bearing stays put. You might have to run a little extra oil in it cause of the rake. If its full when level it could lose some oil off the dipper. When you ad oil do it with the cam cover off and fill it until the bottom of the rod just above the dipper is in the oil. You want maybe 1/8 of the rod cap in oil when rod is down and engine is at rest. 
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 25, 2011, 05:28:06 pm
Crank cleaned up nice..in spec for std bearing..

Rod end looks a little ruff, may need to glue the race in or possible shim to keep it in place..

Either way I'll set it up with plasti-gage...I assume I'm looking fort .003" to .005" clearance on the rod to crank..?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 25, 2011, 05:39:10 pm
At least 3-5 and prolly more toward 5. You could have the big end resized if needed. 
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 26, 2011, 11:25:48 am
I got .006" and am going with it...

Assuming it runs and doesn't melt down during tune in, Will make the run this weekend and then pull it down and check for wear..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 26, 2011, 12:05:30 pm
Double check that oil level with it together. I'm curious if the rod was actually in the oil when its at the bottom of its stroke.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 26, 2011, 01:07:52 pm
I physiclly looked at the level when on an angle...couldn't get a picture, but dipper was submerged and 1/8" to 1/4" of the lower side of the rod cap was also touching the oil. But on the stick I am a little higher than I usually ran, so maybe that was part of the problem.?

I did clean crap from the oil holes in the rod when assembling , but that probably came during the meltdown..
Right now it runs, is tuned in and ready to pull...gonna charge the battery and put it in the trailer before something bad happens...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 26, 2011, 01:53:24 pm
It'll rock and roll now randy have faith. The oil level thing could be the culprit.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Big daddy on August 30, 2011, 09:33:48 am
Bearing lock!! Some rods come with it, others you have to ask for it. The tangs on the bearings no longer keep them from spinning.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on August 30, 2011, 09:45:13 am
Yeah, the dipper spun itself partially out and lost the lock..

I lock tighted it in and seemed to hold during last pull ( oil stayed clean)
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Burton for Certain on August 30, 2011, 09:51:52 am
Id keep an eye on the dipper. We had one spin out last year and we loc tired it in and came out again so we got a whole new rod.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: FlatheadPuller on August 30, 2011, 10:11:36 am
If the rod has the correct bearing "squish" the bearing should not move when combined with the dipper lock. The bearing does have an actual od size dimension that is required to hold it in place to keep it from turning on a psi lube system. I often wonder what makes it different on the kseries splash lube versus any kart engine with An aftermarket rod. They don't have locks. Just use the tangs on the bearings and they stay put. I have bought new billet rods regardless from who that needed the big end resized for the proper bearing od dimension. A machine shop can do it for you. When I have a crank checked for oil clearance and what not it is part of the job. They check crank dimensions, rod dimensions, bearing fit and when all that is done the last thing to check is oil clearance on the big end with the bearing installed and cap torqued.
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on September 05, 2011, 07:30:57 pm
Pulled the pan to check the bearing, glad I did the dipper had worked itself out again...

Bearings were wearing in well so I left them and put a helicoil in the dipper hole and lock tighted it all together again...

Should hold this time I could really feel it tighten in..
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: cubcadet70 on December 10, 2011, 11:59:45 am
Any new upgrades for your motor this winter?
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Squidd on December 10, 2011, 12:25:49 pm
Got a few tricks for the coming season, Biggest is I will be switching to Alcohol with appropriate carb...

I've been running a 1.2" on race gas (cause most clubs allowed it) and have moved up to being able to finish in the top 3 spots...(along with gear changes, new cam, clutch and driving style improvements through out the season)

Couple guys that beat me regular are running alcohol carbs and only pull me by a few feet, so I think this will put me right up there with them if not on top of them...I have a Nicholes 1" Alky carb to tune in...

I also picked up a three stage pipe for the last couple pulls of the season, and while it wasn't a "major" difference, I credit it some for the money finishes I had at the end of season...
Title: Re: K341 Pulling Build
Post by: Burton for Certain on December 10, 2011, 01:14:47 pm
The Nichols carb is the way to go. Used to use a vogel carb on an old motor and all we did was switch to a Nichols/JRS carb and noticed a difference.