'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Jul 11, 2005, 8:39pmResearching the AP class...
We don't have many running here at present, so not enough to determine the "best" chassis layout...
I've seen front engine, mid engine and rear engine layouts...
The local "boneyard" at present, has three or four rear engine chassis available and I'm wondering if I should snag one up or wait for a mid or small front engine chassis to become available..
Weight ratio wise I would "think" a rear engine chassis with the rear axel slightly behind the motor and driver "centered" would have a good balance and decent steering charcteristics...
But the short mid engines also look promising as a "stepping stone" to FX...
Appreciate any opinions on front vs. mid vs. rear engine handling charecteristics....
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 26, 2005, 8:19pmOK, So I decided on the short mid engine chassis for next years ride...I'll build it for AP and then it'll be a "stepping stone" for the following years FX...
It's a early 60s "Rugg" with a 36" wheelbase and 24" width, had 7 hp Te"chump"sa on it and a 30" deck...
I thought I'd do a "Build up" series on this forum showing progress...
Unfortunately my computer died and I lost the "before" pics...(I got a computer dude hacking into the old hard drive, and hopefully I'll get them back)
So I'll start with the stripped down chassis...everything off and down to the bare frame rails...Being a "U" channel frame I "discretely reinforced" it by boxing the channel with 1/8"X1" flat stock...
In order to set rear ride height correctly, I had to "notch" into the frame...if I set the axel "above" the frame it would have been at 3 1/4" to ground (too low)and if I set it below the frame it would have been 6 1/4" (too high) As it is the frame is set at 4 1/2" above ground the finished machine with lower "racing" tire pressure should come in at 4 1/8"-4 1/4" above ground...Legal for tech...
After notching the frame I reinforced the frame (boxed) and welded on the flange mounts...
Then I built the front axel, using 1 1/2" X2" rectangular tubing...at 22" long it weighs in at a little less 1/4 lb. more than if I used 1"x2" tube and twice as strong in a forward "bump"...I used 5/8" spindles and carriers from ACME and welded them on with castor and camber set ...also set at 4 1/2" ride height.
Mower to come...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 26, 2005, 9:05pmRear axel 1" steel, Free spin bearings from ACME..Tires, wheels and hubs from Comet Kart...
Working on setting engine and trans will be facilitated by using "hollow" block for measurements. Motor plate removable for trans and chutch set up... I also moved the steering shaft forward for "head room" when I go to OHV next year and because being long and tall, I don't want to drive with the wheel in my "crotch"...
Being an old "transaxle" setup means I'll have to add to and reinforce the motor plate for the 700 series trans...
Another shot of front axel and relocated steering...
Here the body parts are set "loose" to check clearances and "discrete" fender mount adjustments needed...
Mower to come...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by mowmanscott on Sept 27, 2005, 5:55amlook good keep up the good work
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Sept 27, 2005, 2:24pmthe Only thing I see is the sterring column must exit thru it's original hole in dash/hood if a prepared class mower. FX on the other hand is a different story. Everything else looks great. Good Job.
George
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 27, 2005, 6:10pmOK...I can live with that...I can move it "back" an inch or so and still make the original hole (bump on hood) but just as far forward as the original hole will let me...
Good thing we caught it early...(another reason for "building it on the board here...) would hate to show up at the first race and be sent home...
Good "Eye" George...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 27, 2005, 6:55pmOK...That didn't take long...
I "clamped" the seat on with out the "seat spring" and sat on it....The wheel is not too bad, not as tight to my crotch as it was in the "stock" set up...
I can live with this...Looks nicer too...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 27, 2005, 7:02pmI think once I ("discretely") move the fenders and seat a little closer to the rear wheels, I should be real comfortable...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Sept 28, 2005, 7:18amVery nicecly done, now if you intend on putting an ohv in it when I built my FX I heated the plate on front so it and column went straight up, then cut it off useing a swivel joint ran it back and still run it out the same original hole giving the wheel a more laid back look. Felt real good too. Go to
www.geocities.com/georgenfive and scroll thru the pics Don't remember which page its on. That was 4 or 5 years ago. But again looking good so far, glad I could help.
George
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Sept 28, 2005, 7:37amYeah, I saw your build up(s) on your web page, that's what gave me the idea to move the steering in the first place..
It's AP for this year, and when I do go FX we'll strip 'er down and "tweak" 'er some more...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 1, 2005, 9:57amDidn't get much done this week, Dang Job sucked up a lot of time...
...I'm not going to give up on Family Time or eating or sleeping, so I guess I'll have to quit my my job so I can dedicate more time to building my mower...
Yep...Sacrifices have to be made...
The Axel and Spindles came with "Nylock" nuts and I wanted "castellated" nuts to set pre load...Went to the Auto parts store and they wanted over $4 a POP for them...that's nuts<<<
...So I got some 79 centers at the Hdwr store and a little work with the cut off wheel saved me $15...
Added 4" to the motor plate by "relocating" a piece of the running board to the back, filled the old "holes" and drilled in the pattern for the 700...
Also found a nice rear sprocket in excellent shape on one of the old mowers I stripped down, so I cut the center out on a lathe and drilled it to fit the sprocket hub...
Had to cut out the rear crossmember to fit the sprocket (and the brake disc, if they ever ship it) I need to replace it with something..was thinking a piece of 1/4" X 2" flat bent out over and back (kinda like this _/------\_ )
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 1, 2005, 10:14pmOK, Have the clutch mocked up and set, final adjustments and belt selection will be made after I have a running motor installed...Due to closeness of engine and trans pulleys, I went with a single tensioner pulley and a couple "belt keepers"...if I need a second "V" pulley one one could be added to the tensioner mount.
Linkage to pedal goes in after plate is back on frame, pedal and rod are part of the frame...
Also cut a "notch" and reinforced for chain clearance and chain tensioner, which will be added when I get the final gearset...
I see this thread has had quite a few "views"...If anyone has any questions, comments or "pointers" I'd be glad to hear them...I'm no expert at this, I'm just plugging along doing what seems to make "sence"...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Red Horse Racing on Oct 2, 2005, 7:08pmI don't have any questions or pointers, but I do want to say THANK YOU for showing us the details of your project.
I have dial up, as many people still do, as it's the only thing I can get here in the sticks. A lot of people when they post pictures tend to forget this, or simply don't have the time to resize the pictures to reasonable file size.
This thread loads within a few minutes, and is GREAT!!!
Keep it going, it's giving me inspiration, and hopefully soon I'll have something to ad. Right now the tractor used to mow the grass is giving me FITS! I can't worry about going fast until I can mow. LOL
Thanks again, keep up the good work.
Dale
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 4, 2005, 7:54pmI cannot picture what you want to do for the rear. tack it in place and send a pic I will let you know. As far as everything thing else. Still looking very good. You do nice work.
George
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by moweracer227 on Oct 4, 2005, 9:33pmSquidd,
What type of brakes you going to use. If it is a aftermarket need room for caliper and rear brake disc.
If going to use trans brake should be fine with current setup. Aluminum axle---watch for axle fles around sprocket area. May need support there if going to use a beast of a motor. Just what I see--also I agree with George/Dale--no expert here, but like what I see so far.
Moweracer227
S/P227 A/P227
F/x 227
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by jake100 on Oct 4, 2005, 9:57pmHay mowracer;
Isn't a brake on the trans. a hazard by using the chain as link in brake system?? ???
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 4, 2005, 11:15pmHey thanks guys...Yeah, I've burned a few "sticks" in my time...Gotta love wire feed...
George...will "tack" one on shortly...after I do brake set up...Need the room for rear sprocket and Disk, but don't want the appearance of adding a "bumper"...
Mowerracer227...8" disk planned for "right" of rear sprocket (that's why I put the trans on the left)..I have the caliper..still waiting for the disk to show up..hopefully this weekends project... That's a steel axel, only 7" to each frame...still think I'll have "flex"...??
And yeah...a "Beast" of a motor IS planned... :-X
Pony...Yeah out in the boonies I have dial up too...(part of why I keep the pics small...for loading)...I hate that when you have to "scroll" across the page to read the text...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Red Horse Racing on Oct 6, 2005, 7:31pmHey Squid,
On those castled nuts you wanted. I'm not sure what size you need, but I was just cruising Manufacturers Supply,
http://www.mfgsupply.com/GoMiniHardwareNuts.html/mv_session_id=8wn7ogYYand found them for 23 to 75 cents. The largest they have is only 5/8" though.
Did you look at someplace like Lowe's or Home Depot? Quite often they have a rack of nuts and bolts.
Dale, in Michigan
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 6, 2005, 11:25pmsquidd if an AP you will be using 6 inch rims and tires right. Ok an 8" disk may present a ground clearance issue on a rough track get bent and provide a frustrating DNF. A 6 inch disk is very sufficient for an AP or FX for that matter especially if using a hydraulic brake system. Also munt brake system outside the frame, you want to run 5 inch wide wheels (wide) on an ap so clearance will not be an issue. I havn't run AP but the fast guys are not using wide rims and tires I presume better performance with less HP. And look at this way more lbs per square inch meaning better traction. Just some opinions. Either way a 6 inch brake disk is sufficient. George
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 7, 2005, 12:20amGeorge... OK I hear you...got kind of the same situation with the 54 tooth gear (8 3/4")...
I already ordered the 8" brake disc, (hopefully it'll show up tomorrow), and then I can cut that down to a 6"...and then bust out the Visa and get a smaller diameter Sprocket ...like a 40 tooth...
That should leave me room to stay with the stock rear crossmember...Kinda kill two or three birds with one stone, so to speak...
Red Horse...I'm sure there are "cheaper" places to get castellated nuts...(could have had Mc Master send some out with my last order...)
Point was more the McGiver/Self suffeciency, Do it yourself thing...Kinda like, let's say it's late Friday night, your getting ready to hit the road to make the race tommorrow, and your missing a nut (or bracket or "clip" or what ever)...and you remember this thread and "make one yourself"..and your ready to rock and roll...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 7, 2005, 10:05pmWell, hopefully I can catch you guys tonight...
I got 'er tacked up and plan on welding 'er together tomorrow...
I got the 8" disk and cut it down to 6"+/- and mounted it and the caliper "inboard" (just because it was an "easy" mount) and then switched the 8 3/4" sprocket for a 6 1/2" 40 tooth aluminum...
That ment I didn't have to "bump" the rear cross member out as much for clearance (and make it look like a "bumper") and will still be strong enough for "twist" control...
I'm thinking this should pass "tech" as a "discrete" frame reinforcement, but I'd like to hear your "opinion" George...not sure what else I can do and still clear the sprocket and disk...
Here's a quick shot showing the old crossmember...as you can see i'm not any further out or "obtrusive" than the original piece would have been and it gives me the clearance I need...
Well...back out to the shop to finish up the fender and seat mounts...
Later..
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Red Horse Racing on Oct 7, 2005, 10:49pmOh Squidd, I never intended any disrespect on your make do fix. I do them all the time.
Maybe I should been more clear. My referral was more intended for reference for anyone found wanting for castellated nuts, who also had the time for them "come in."
I'm enjoying this thread immensely. Just tonight in trying to remove the stock pulleys from the transaxle and engine, which of course seemed to be permentently bonded on, I came up with an idea.
I drilled three equally spaced holes around the pulleys and used a harmonic balancer puller to pull them off. Worked much better than the three-jawed pullers I've always used in the past only to wind up totally destroying the pulleys.
Theoretically, these pulleys should still be usable. But did I take pictures??? Heck no! Never occured to me until just now.
Keep up the good work.
Dale, in Michigan
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 8, 2005, 2:11amHey suidd looks good to me!!! Sorry so late been building myself. building two an SP and a BP in 4 days. S/P is done except clutch and BP is about 45% complete. Gotta finish it the owners are up here from Florida to pick them up. Should be done Sunday Evening. Whew allot of work. GeorgeRe: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 8, 2005, 9:28am
George, Super...Thanks, we'll go with it then...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 8, 2005, 9:32amRed Horse, No offence ment, none taken...Good job on the pully/puller, I trashed a few myself (as well as transaxel wheel/axel/shafts) a good puller sure beats "Heat and Beat"..
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 8, 2005, 9:41amFor all you "enginering" types...
I'm going to be setting up the steering linkage soon...
Direct steering, Center link,both shaft link and spindle links are on the same plane..
Choices are:
"A" common pin, one up one down...difference of tie rod angles
"B" common pin, both below (or above)...difference of tie rod angles
"C" seperate pins, possible "ackerman" offset, tie rods on same plane.
Any preferences and "why"...??
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by mowmanscott on Oct 8, 2005, 10:10amOh yah I rember my last heat and beat I was takeing a pully off a transaxel heat and beat heat and beat then I broke the input shaft right off the case I had to make a trip to the bone yard. I found my puller worked great to remove the pulley from the shaft I will never make do that again....
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 9, 2005, 5:53pmOk...I know I spent WAY Too Much time on this part, and there are easier ways to do this...but...
I was able to "blend" and mold a running board/foot cup into the mower deck, as far forward and low as I could go, to get the most "leg" room on this "mini" machine...
Mower deck set 1 1/2" below frame, should come in 2 3/4" above ground when complete...
All edges ground round and smooth under machine...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 12, 2005, 10:19amAny thoughts on the steering linkage...?
I'm thinking of going with option "C"... so "inside" tire turns further (tighter) than outside tire..
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by moweracer227 on Oct 12, 2005, 8:19pmSquidd,
I use the option C on all my mowchines. I also tilt my U-shaped bracket in at the top 10 degrees (neg camber) to speed up weight transfer during turning. Castor is normally set around to around 3-7 degrees depending on driving style, or what is best for current setup. U-shaped bracket angled back at top side. The other thing I do is drill three holes in each spindle arm were tie rods bolt for ackerman adjustments. Sounds like alot of work but once it is set/adjusted handling is far more superior. Still need to check periododically for adjustments. Toe-In at 1/8th inch.
Moweracer227
P.S. No don't think you will get much flex with only 7 inches there.
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 13, 2005, 3:17pmI think you have your castor and camber definitions mixed up but I hear you on the angles...
I set the castor (top of king pin "back") at 13* and the camber (top of king pin "in") at 1 1/2* and 3 1/2* L&R respectively...
I went a little higher on the castor in case I try taller tires in the rear...(although I'd prefer to keep the chassis level)
I had originally set my IMOW castor to 10* relative to the axel, but when I welded the axel in an 1 1/4" higher and got the tallest tires I could on the rear, I ended up with only 3*-4* after the chassis "raked"...(hint for imow guys)
Gonna do a couple cardboard and coat hanger "mock-ups" (check linkage angles) before I do any cutting, drilling and welding, but option "C" it is...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 15, 2005, 9:24pmGlad I went with the cardboard and coat hanger befor I fired up the welder...Had to adjust the layout a couple times to get the ackerman effect I wanted...
First time up the outside tire turned tighter than the inside...
Final layout...shows angle of outside spindle...
Same angle on "inside spindle: shows 7* tighter radius...
Heres the final centerlink and angle of tierods...tomorrow I can drill and tap the rods and bolt in the balljoints...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 16, 2005, 10:35pmHere's the final steering setup..tie rods are 9/16" rod, center drilled and taped for 3/8" X3/8" balljoints... Tight...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 16, 2005, 10:42pmHere's the (almost) finished frame...
Just need to figure out a clutch pedal and linkage that will be quick and "convienent" to reach with my foot wedged in the boot cup...and a battery box...
Then a clean, sand, prime and paint..
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by mowmanscott on Oct 17, 2005, 5:32amlooks great Squidd! Thanks for sharing all you pics. so far....
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by Squidd on Oct 17, 2005, 6:49amHey, and I want to thank all you guys for watching over this project thru the build up ...and all the suggestions hints and tips ...made a few changes as we went, stuff that "might have" caused trouble down the line, if I went ahead and built this blindly in the back room...
I do have a few more steps to go yet, I want to do another "pre assembly/mock up" to check linkages, cables, exhaust, body panels, chain guard, seat mount, tach mount, tank mount, switching...
Holy Smokes...I got a LOT more work to do yet...before I paint...
As a side note, an interesting development came up this weekend...My 13 yr old "Daughter" showed an interest in the Lawnmower build up and even in the possibilty of "Racing"...
So I pulled out what was going to be my "back up" AP a 40" front engine mowchine that's already set up with "chain drive" trans and axel, just needs to be widened and lowered...and set her to work on it...
Could be one of the first "J/P" mowchines in our LC area....We'll have to see how this one develops...Could have a new "Racing Buddy"...
Re: 'Nother AP Question...
Post by George Herrin on Oct 17, 2005, 7:18amgreat job and I know the happy Dad feelings when the kids show that spark of interest. Looking forward to seeing the end result on the track. George