Author Topic: Rules clarification  (Read 33162 times)

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Offline FlatheadPuller

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2012, 06:17:42 pm »
Even under a shroud you can tell a recast head from an oem head. Specifically a command head. Just look between the spark plug and the ports and up to the flange the valve cover sits on.
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Offline mowerman43GREATDANE

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2012, 06:21:42 pm »
From the 2012 ARMA Rulebook:

SUPER MOD SINGLE AND TWIN-ENGINE: Internal and external modifications are permitted for all engines. After-market aluminum
billet flywheels are MANDATORY. Modifications to the block and heads are unlimited.

Meaning- you MAY run billet heads.  

Also from the rulebook:

ALL MOTORS MUST BE OF LAWN MOWER ORIGIN

Meaning- you MUST start with a lawn mower block.  And, since I have yet to see a manufacturer create a billet block, you MAY NOT run a billet block in Super Mod or any other ARMA class.

MODIFY is defined as: to change somewhat the form or qualities of; alter partially; amend

Hope this clears everything up from the ARMA side!
Stacey




Offline FlatheadPuller

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2012, 06:31:01 pm »
"Meaning-you MAY run billet heads"

Thats a big can of worms thats getting opened.

And we go back to the part that states "if it doesnt say you can you can't"

ALL MOTORS MUST BE OF LAWN MOWER ORIGIN

No OEM ever made a billet block. Nor did they make a billet head.
Dennis Bazzett
Grandville Michigan

Offline Cromwell C4

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2012, 06:37:31 pm »
Well the ARMA staff just said billet blocks, not legal. Billet heads, legal only in the supermod single and twin classes. US on the other hand i think they are illegal.
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Offline mowerman43GREATDANE

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2012, 06:40:48 pm »
Hey, I am open to suggestions!  If it is too difficult to understand the way it is written we can certainly go in and make that a specific comment for the Super Mod class drivers.  How about:

Engines must originate as an OEM lawn mower engine block.  This block may be internally and externally modified.  Billet heads are permitted.

Better?

Stacey

Offline FlatheadPuller

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2012, 06:45:22 pm »
Nicely stated Stacey.

For the guy that has the money that will put some serious hp machines on the track. I know the tire size is prolly the ultimate factor on putting it to the ground. Some one will get creative now with a chunk of aluminum and some really nasty machines will be born from it.
Dennis Bazzett
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Offline Cromwell C4

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2012, 06:47:37 pm »
For the guy that has the money that will put some serious hp machines on the track. I know the tire size is prolly the ultimate factor on putting it to the ground. Some one will get creative now with a chunk of aluminum and some really nasty machines will be born from it.

I don't think it will change much from watching races. It takes much more than hp to win races these days. Like i said, look at the all american this year. Small vanguards set the fastest lap times and won the race in super mod twin/ fxt.
Tyler Cromwell - Cromwell Racing Engines - Specializing in Briggs Vanguard and Kohler Command V-twin engines, and Honda/Clone singles from mild to wild! Built to win, Engineered to last.

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Offline George Herrin

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2012, 06:51:48 pm »
And tyler thats my excat point put black and white limits to save dollars before they are spent. yes the super mods are the baddest out there kinda class BUT lets get real if we allow anything goes kind thing we will get so fast one day that somebody will get killed be it racer or spectatorand insurance goes out the windows. We shoule be proactive now before its to late. technology is growing leaps and bounds because the rules are not clear if its black and white fromthe get go it can be contained to an extent. And yes the super mods being the baddest as they are called is a money class but it dont have to be a bottomless pit. We do race on many tmeporary tracks and just imagine if one of these got away from a driver wide open it would be a 4 wheel bowling ball through a hay ball and plastic fence and then the crowd.

Stacey that just muddied it even more for me in my mind and here is why
Quote
Modify
means to alter no where in your discription or the rules does it say you can replace. No manufacturer made billet heads either. This is what my understanding is and the original intent was supposed to be. But I understand and thank you for your clarification and your defineing of the rule and the definition of modify. That clears it up for me and I now know what I need to do. The reason we are asking calarification on this is a set of the recast heads mwsc heads start at 2250 per set. And billet is even more. And as you know I generally make pleanty of power using stock heads so now myself and any other racers that do not have these parts will now be required to have them to be competetive or be down  as much as 20 hp. Is this where we want the sport to truly go? I hit Carrol up to make some of these heads.  He said that is no problem just some time on the machines and two small peices of aluminum but is it needed. He has been on the the phone all day and it will not be legal else where. This in itself can narrow the drawing field for all concerned.
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Offline FlatheadPuller

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2012, 07:02:59 pm »
Same reason we dont put them on our 45 George. We cant run them at home local. With recast heads we could pull just a couple times a year with nqs. If we run what we have we can hook 20+ times a year. Would I like to run a national event, sure would. But its not worth the expense for just a couple hooks.
Dennis Bazzett
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Offline mowerman43GREATDANE

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2012, 07:11:51 pm »
Cubic dollars does not always equate to horsepower and wins.  That has been proven in more than one racing class.  If you can't turn it, drive it or put the horsepower to the ground it doesn't matter what you spend.  Noone said you HAD to runn billet anything except the flywheel.  There will be MANY on both the local and national level who won't.  Guess drivers won't know until they get out a give it a go how competitive they can be.  Too many variables to predict!

Drivers had requested a class where they could take their builds to a new level.  And, with that intent this class was developed.  Chassis and other considerations were made that addressed the need to go fast safely.  If a driver wants to "push the envelope" and build for this class, that is their perrogative.  If not, ARMA offers seven other classes to choose from.

If there are any other suggestions on how to word this, feel free to email me.  I appreciate your help in getting it written so it is easily understood without any issues.  

Thanks!
Stacey

Offline GRUBDIGGER

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2012, 07:21:55 pm »
And tyler thats my excat point put black and white limits to save dollars before they are spent. yes the super mods are the baddest out there kinda class BUT lets get real if we allow anything goes kind thing we will get so fast one day that somebody will get killed be it racer or spectatorand insurance goes out the windows. We shoule be proactive now before its to late. technology is growing leaps and bounds because the rules are not clear if its black and white fromthe get go it can be contained to an extent. And yes the super mods being the baddest as they are called is a money class but it dont have to be a bottomless pit. We do race on many tmeporary tracks and just imagine if one of these got away from a driver wide open it would be a 4 wheel bowling ball through a hay ball and plastic fence and then the crowd.

Stacey that just muddied it even more for me in my mind and here is why  means to alter no where in your discription or the rules does it say you can replace. No manufacturer made billet heads either. This is what my understanding is and the original intent was supposed to be. But I understand and thank you for your clarification and your defineing of the rule and the definition of modify. That clears it up for me and I now know what I need to do. The reason we are asking calarification on this is a set of the recast heads mwsc heads start at 2250 per set. And billet is even more. And as you know I generally make pleanty of power using stock heads so now myself and any other racers that do not have these parts will now be required to have them to be competetive or be down  as much as 20 hp. Is this where we want the sport to truly go? I hit Carrol up to make some of these heads.  He said that is no problem just some time on the machines and two small peices of aluminum but is it needed. He has been on the the phone all day and it will not be legal else where. This in itself can narrow the drawing field for all concerned.

LIKE YOU JUST SAID, 2250.00 FOR A SET OF RECAST HEADS. SOME PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE MONEY WILL BUY THEM. YOU HAVE ALWAYS SAID HP COST MONEY. IF MY ENGINE DIDNT BLOW LAST YEAR, I WOULD HAVE TO HAVE A CUSTOM FLYWHEEL MADE BECAUSE THATS MANDATORY NOW. I DONT HAVE 700.00+ TO HAVE ONE MADE . NOT MY FAULT THAT ARC DOESNT HAVE ONE FOR THE KAWASAKI FH SERIES. PRO-X AND THE SUPER MOD CLASSES ARE THE BEST OF THE BEST MACHINES AS FAR AS WHAT YOU CAN DO TO THEM.LETS JUST GO RACING AND HAVE FUN. THATS WHATS IT ALL ABOUT. FUN.
Cubic dollars does not always equate to horsepower and wins.  That has been proven in more than one racing class.  If you can't turn it, drive it or put the horsepower to the ground it doesn't matter what you spend.  Noone said you HAD to runn billet anything except the flywheel.  There will be MANY on both the local and national level who won't.  Guess drivers won't know until they get out a give it a go how competitive they can be.  Too many variables to predict!

Drivers had requested a class where they could take their builds to a new level.  And, with that intent this class was developed.  Chassis and other considerations were made that addressed the need to go fast safely.  If a driver wants to "push the envelope" and build for this class, that is their perrogative.  If not, ARMA offers seven other classes to choose from.

If there are any other suggestions on how to word this, feel free to email me.  I appreciate your help in getting it written so it is easily understood without any issues. 

Thanks!
Stacey

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Offline sporty

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2012, 08:11:34 pm »
 
Quote
if it doesnt say you can, you cant

If someone wants to get picky, this rule essentially makes every mower illegal.
Chris Gatesman

Offline mower_mulisha

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2012, 09:11:09 pm »
From the 2012 ARMA Rulebook:

SUPER MOD SINGLE AND TWIN-ENGINE: Internal and external modifications are permitted for all engines. After-market aluminum
billet flywheels are MANDATORY. Modifications to the block and heads are unlimited.
ALL MOTORS MUST BE OF LAWN MOWER ORIGIN

Meaning- you MUST start with a lawn mower block.  And, since I have yet to see a manufacturer create a billet block, you MAY NOT run a billet block in Super Mod or any other ARMA class.

MODIFY is defined as: to change somewhat the form or qualities of; alter partially; amend

Hope this clears everything up from the ARMA side!
Stacey






Stacey I would read this as First-I must start with an engine that came from a lawnmower. Second-I have to REPLACE the Stock flywheel with a Billet Aluminum one. Third-I can MODIFY the engine Internally and Externally. Fourth-the Modifications to the BLOCK and Heads are UNLIMITED. Now this is where I get confused....in years past where the Rules have stated Internal Modiifications Allowed...that's where everyeone is allowed to REPLACE internal components such as replace stock rods with Billet and stock cams with Modified ones along with a mile long list of REPLACING stock parts with aftermarket Billet Aluminum Parts. That was and is ALL LEGAL. So Now EXTERNAL mods are allowed and MODIFICATIONS to BLOCK and HEADS are allowed too....so if MODIFICATIONS means also REPLACE like we do internally and can now do EXTERNALLY but it also Contradicts the 1st Rule of using a Stock Block. What needs to be worded is WHAT parts must remain BOX Stock from the Factory and What can be REPLACED with Aftermarket. Now that would take our ALREADY too LONG Rule Book a few more pages of confusion. KEEP IT SIMPLE. If you want to ALLOW $2000 + heads then say it. Otherwise Blocks Must Be OEM Factory Blocks. Heads must MATCH OEM Factory Block being used and be OEM Factory Heads as well. INTERNAL Mods to Block and Internal Heads ALLOWED. Exhaust, Intakes and Carbs are OPEN. Think that is more to match the USLMRA Rules as well. Basically take a stock block and stock heads and do what you want with the rest....Modify or Replace!

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2012, 09:18:02 pm »


Blocks Must Be OEM Factory Blocks. Heads must MATCH OEM Factory Block being used and be OEM Factory Heads as well. INTERNAL Mods to Block and Internal Heads ALLOWED.  Basically take a stock block and stock heads and do what you want with the rest   INTERNALLY

I modified it slightly.

Darrin, your wording would be correct for Supersportsman.

They are allowing aftermarket heads and external block modifications in pro-x, supermod single and supermod twin, the way I read it.
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Offline more4les

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Re: Rules clarification
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2012, 12:18:45 am »

Stacey I would read this as First-I must start with an engine that came from a lawnmower. Second-I have to REPLACE the Stock flywheel with a Billet Aluminum one. Third-I can MODIFY the engine Internally and Externally. Fourth-the Modifications to the BLOCK and Heads are UNLIMITED. Now this is where I get confused....in years past where the Rules have stated Internal Modiifications Allowed...that's where everyeone is allowed to REPLACE internal components such as replace stock rods with Billet and stock cams with Modified ones along with a mile long list of REPLACING stock parts with aftermarket Billet Aluminum Parts. That was and is ALL LEGAL. So Now EXTERNAL mods are allowed and MODIFICATIONS to BLOCK and HEADS are allowed too....so if MODIFICATIONS means also REPLACE like we do internally and can now do EXTERNALLY but it also Contradicts the 1st Rule of using a Stock Block. What needs to be worded is WHAT parts must remain BOX Stock from the Factory and What can be REPLACED with Aftermarket. Now that would take our ALREADY too LONG Rule Book a few more pages of confusion. KEEP IT SIMPLE. If you want to ALLOW $2000 + heads then say it. Otherwise Blocks Must Be OEM Factory Blocks. Heads must MATCH OEM Factory Block being used and be OEM Factory Heads as well. INTERNAL Mods to Block and Internal Heads ALLOWED. Exhaust, Intakes and Carbs are OPEN. Think that is more to match the USLMRA Rules as well. Basically take a stock block and stock heads and do what you want with the rest....Modify or Replace!

This was my argument a few topics back. If modify means replace with billet parts (flywheel, dog bone, connecting rod, crankshaft) then it must also mean billet heads. If you don't want them to be used then the rule must state OEM block and heads. Modifications allowed , must use OEM block and heads.

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