Author Topic: Electronic Ignition Design  (Read 60689 times)

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Offline Goeytex

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Electronic Ignition Design
« on: December 15, 2010, 06:36:49 pm »
While I am waiting on finished boards for the rev limiter I thought I would do some
preliminary work on an electronic ignition system. 

It seems with highly modified engines running as much as 30 degrees advanced timing that
starting can be a problem. So I thought that a system that had a simple bulit in advance
curve might be helpful.  This can be done several ways but I thought I would try to keep it
simple.  Here are some options I thought of.

1. Run  15 degrees advance up to 1500 rpm, then jump to the max as set by the user
   For example: Initial timing is 15 degrees. Timing remains at 15 degrees up to 2000 RPM
   At 2000 RPM the timing jumps to max ( 25 degress or whatever the user sets)

2. Start at 10 degrees advance and then advance in relation to RPM.
   For example: Initial timing is 10 degrees (0 - 1500 rpm)  As the engine speed in
   increases  beyond  1500 the timing advances in relation to RPM.   After 1500 timing
   advances linearly from 10 degrees at 1500 RPM  to 28 degree at 5000. Beyond  5000,
   timing stays at 28.
 
I am sure there are other ways that might be even better.

So what I need from the engine builders here is to know what would be your ideal advance curve / method ?   Let's start with singles. Briggs Flathead and OHV.

Bill
Bill Roth
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Austin, TX.
Email: bill.roth@comtrotech.com

Offline THawley08

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Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 06:57:57 pm »
I would think option 2 would be better since you are gradually advancing the timing

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Offline Burwell555

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 07:07:18 pm »
It would need to switch timing quickly. Or better yet, MSD has what they call a start retard built into their ignition boxes. It knocks the timing back until the motor pops off. Then timing is put to where you have it set. They are usually adjustable with chips or a dial box. We run the dial box. I'm not sure on the technical end what makes it all go goeytex. That stuff I leave for you lol. But really the timing doesn't need retarded to run at low rpms, just during ignition cranking until it fires.
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Offline George Herrin

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 07:44:08 pm »
I ran a setup very much like the @1 once. Did well like it started good ran good. Only advantage I could tell over oem ignition was the ease of starting. My problem was I kept leaving the switch on and kept killing the battery. When the brain went bad (msd) I went back to OEM. The gradual sounds cool but would it raise the cost tremendously.
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Offline Goeytex

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2010, 09:14:28 pm »
I ran a setup very much like the @1 once. Did well like it started good ran good. Only advantage I could tell over oem ignition was the ease of starting. My problem was I kept leaving the switch on and kept killing the battery. When the brain went bad (msd) I went back to OEM. The gradual sounds cool but would it raise the cost tremendously.

Yes,  #2 would be more expensive.  #1 is straight forward and fairly simple.  And since you mentioned it,  an auto shut down
could be incorporated so that if folks leave the switch on for say 5 minutes and no ignition pulse is detected from the sensor
it will go into "sleep mode" where it wont drain the battery.  As soon as the starter is engaged it "wakes up" again.

I am thinking  #1 with a "capacitive discharge" ignition box sending about 20 KV to the plug using a Yamaha Ignition coil.  Should be good to about 12,000 RPM with  no spark scatter.    Will have an LED on the box to set the timing with.  So you turn the flywheel by hand until the LED lights and you are at 28 degrees BTDC or wherever you set the timing to. Would work great with the ARC Flywheel /adjustable Center.  When starting, a delay timer is activated reducing the timing to 15 degrees.

How does that sound ?     
Bill Roth
12405 Blossomwood Dr
Austin, TX.
Email: bill.roth@comtrotech.com

Offline THawley08

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Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2010, 09:21:53 pm »
You can use the same principle with the opposed just with a two post coil or two separate ones

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Offline George Herrin

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2010, 09:33:35 pm »
Yes,  #2 would be more expensive.  #1 is straight forward and fairly simple.  And since you mentioned it,  an auto shut down
could be incorporated so that if folks leave the switch on for say 5 minutes and no ignition pulse is detected from the sensor
it will go into "sleep mode" where it wont drain the battery.  As soon as the starter is engaged it "wakes up" again.

I am thinking  #1 with a "capacitive discharge" ignition box sending about 20 KV to the plug using a Yamaha Ignition coil.  Should be good to about 12,000 RPM with  no spark scatter.    Will have an LED on the box to set the timing with.  So you turn the flywheel by hand until the LED lights and you are at 28 degrees BTDC or wherever you set the timing to. Would work great with the ARC Flywheel /adjustable Center.  When starting, a delay timer is activated reducing the timing to 15 degrees.

How does that sound ?     

I like the sound of that alot...
George Herrin #6
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Offline Rooster

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2010, 10:15:46 pm »
Yes,  #2 would be more expensive.  #1 is straight forward and fairly simple.  And since you mentioned it,  an auto shut down
could be incorporated so that if folks leave the switch on for say 5 minutes and no ignition pulse is detected from the sensor
it will go into "sleep mode" where it wont drain the battery.  As soon as the starter is engaged it "wakes up" again.

I am thinking  #1 with a "capacitive discharge" ignition box sending about 20 KV to the plug using a Yamaha Ignition coil.  Should be good to about 12,000 RPM with  no spark scatter.    Will have an LED on the box to set the timing with.  So you turn the flywheel by hand until the LED lights and you are at 28 degrees BTDC or wherever you set the timing to. Would work great with the ARC Flywheel /adjustable Center.  When starting, a delay timer is activated reducing the timing to 15 degrees.

How does that sound ?      

Where do I send the check and when does it ship?

I use a gm 2 post coil for the opposed twins, I know your talking singles, but the only difference for the opposed would be another wire!
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Offline THawley08

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Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2010, 10:36:10 pm »
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Tommy Hawley
Sponsors:
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Owner of the baddest opposed in the north.
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Offline THawley08

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Re: Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2010, 10:36:58 pm »
I second that I will cut the check asap

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Offline Goeytex

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2010, 12:04:00 am »
Rooster,

At this point I am doing basic design work until the Rev limiter boards arrive.  Then I will put all my efforts
to get the paid for rev limiters shipped and some extras stocked.  

After that I will work on the ignition system some more and make up a prototype for testing,  probably on an Intek OHV single
that I have here.  I also want to work on building a chassis.  Just traded for a nice little welder and a chop saw so I am getting
a bit antsy to burn some rods.  I also have to fix a Hurco CNC mill ( auto tool changer, etc) so that I can mill some parts.

So I'm guessing it will be a couple of months before I have an ignition system completed.  

Bill        
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Austin, TX.
Email: bill.roth@comtrotech.com

Offline Rooster

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2010, 02:27:05 am »
 I also have to fix a Hurco CNC mill ( auto tool changer, etc) so that I can mill some parts.


now you REALLY have my attention...
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Offline Rocket Ron

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2010, 10:17:25 am »
 The type of Ing. system that you speeking of is used on current model chain saw's the Ing. is in retared mode for ease of starting 60-120cc engine's then it adv. for performance. you could disect on and make one like It. Oh! I forgot to mention that Husqvarna has a pat. on their's It's called Smart Start.
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Offline Goeytex

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 10:45:48 am »
Most patents are in the "how it's done category". Method  patents if you will.  Just doing it
rarely infringes upon a patent unless it is a direct ripoff .  A Google patent search shows well
over 50 patents on electronic/ CDI ignitions that retard / advance timing.

Bill
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Offline Rocket Ron

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Re: Electronic Ignition Design
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 11:05:27 am »
 Was just curious, Thought the guy who was going to rope start his 52"- 8.5 to 1 oppie would be Intrested.  :woo:
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